Hello,
I'd like to ask a question concerning the punishment for our sins.
Let's say that someone sins.. (whetever sin), and he repents. Does God punish him/her still despite repentance of that person?
For example... King David sinned. He committed adultary & killed someone (Uriah). Now, someone raped his daughter, and his own son tried to kill him. Also, his 1st born from Bethsheba was taken from him (he died). Is all this punishment for his sins?? Or is it just co-incidence?
Lets assume there are 2 possible outcomes:
Case 1) You are punished on earth for your sins
Case 2) You are not punished on earth for your sins.
Questions on Case 1)
* This leads to several questions. What happens if someone literally gets away with murder. They die. They repent, but they haven't been punished in anyway for it.
What's their outcome? Spiritually?
* Does this imply that our repentance is futile?
* Does punishment reciprocate into the family? So, for the example of David, his son died. His son somehow was punished for his father's sins.
Questions on Case 2)
OK.. so let's say that there is no punishment - but a person repents for his/her sins. But they've just basically gotten away with murder. They've repented and confessed it. How does God deal with that?
* What can they expect to receive from God?
* Is this in anyway just?
Comments
God is a FAIR God if u sin he will forgive you, God is the most merciful.
Yes, OK.. but despite David's repentance, he paid for his sins still. No?
This question is basically about ONE thing:
What goes around comes around. What u do to others will be done to u. Does this hold in Biblical Terms?
God wishes all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth. His measurements for justice are above our intellect.
When a parent punishes his child, it is only for correction not because he enjoys punishing the child. Imagine God, our creator and father who loves us even more than a parent loves his child. I would answer your question by another question: why would He WANT to punish us in the first place. Isn't God love?
[quote author=copticdeacon link=topic=6669.msg89139#msg89139 date=1212417436]
God is a FAIR God if u sin he will forgive you, God is the most merciful.
Yes, OK.. but despite David's repentance, he paid for his sins still. No?
This question is basically about ONE thing:
What goes around comes around. What u do to others will be done to u. Does this hold in Biblical Terms?
not really. but as we all know, as there is wage on earth and there is also in heaven. i'd like to replace the word "punishment" with "wage". out God is a just and in the same merciful, as we ALL know. He doesn't put you in jail but rather gives all their rightfull reward/wage. then we bring this upon oursefl not God and not ppl who judge us here on earth.
if you are not on earth anymore, and you do get to heaven (through your repentce), then does the "earthly wage" matter any more.....it doesn't look like it to me. the key here is to get to heaven. no one can "wink" his/her way into heaven under an angel's wing walla haga. if you do, then all your bad deeds are forgotten and you are a whole new person, living in God's ever-bright anf ever-holy light and glory.
things you do on earth yes can come around and hit you on your back, on earth. why becasue everything is connected. but not in heaven.....the dwelling place of the Almighty/Pantocrator.
We need not to forget that being in sin and not being in communion with God is in itself a natural punishment. Even if this murderer was not punished here on earth by being jailed or so, don't think he has rest and peace deep down inside of him.
God wishes all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth. His measurements for justice are above our intellect.
When a parent punishes his child, it is only for correction not because he enjoys punishing the child. Imagine God, our creator and father who loves us even more than a parent loves his child. I would answer your question by another question: why would He WANT to punish us in the first place. Isn't God love?
Now one second Matt, look at King David.. when he desired Bethsheba, he was feeling fine. He wasn't in torment. When he planned the wicked execution of her husband, he was not tormented at all. In fact, Nathan the Prophet, even told him a story of someone that resembled his actions, and he couldn't see that it was HIM that was being talked about. No no no no... David felt fine. Don't tell me that whilst having sex with another man's wife and killing her husband that "God was still with him"... no.. I don't believe. I believe the Holy Spirit left Him at that time, and HE WAS STILL ok with it.
So - what can we say? Was what happened to him just bad karma or was it God's will that he suffers on earth for what he had done so that he pays nothing in heaven?? Let me know...
This idea of suffering or paying for your sins on earth so that u pay nothing afterwards in heaven is a greatly disputed topic WITHIN our church.
What's the truth??
His regret and pain was so great that he wetted his couch every night with his tears, even after God had forgiven him.
He felt the pain of the sin, therefore he cried out saying: Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin, purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness.
Sin is what derives us from God and God is the source of our true inner joy, therefore David felt the pain and grieve of his actions.
Sure, God forgives, but is the saying :"What goes around comes around" applicable with God??
QT you have to remember how God delt with those of the Old Testament is different than the New Testament because they were still in "exile" from God. There was barrier between us and Him. In the Old Testament when you sinned you were punished regardless if you repented or not. The pennalty of sin was death, plus God took his son from him and all the things you mentioned as punishment. King David did repent, he wrote psalm 50 after this ordeal. But he still deserved everything he got. Then after he died he went to hades! where no one gives thanks and there is anguish for their deeds. You have to remember that is punishment enough for some.
THat's a good point JY,
But is today, in 2008, if someone is baptised and belives and has Holy Communion, and does a really outrageous sin. He/she confesses it. What kind of suffering is there for them? How is justice served??
I mean, there is NO punishment?? Or do u/WE as a CHurch believe that each sin holds with it a punishment??
Does God pay us back for what we've done to others??
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
God is omnipresent, it's us who give him our back instead of Him leaving us. Technically God can't leave us, even though we can feel like that happens sometimes. I read a good comparison: can you blame the sun for the darkness of the blind person? No, it's in fact the sick eyes of the blind that should be blamed.
I mean, if we know the difference between right and wrong... what happens to us if we know what's wrong and yet we do it?? Do we get paid back??
If yes, then what happens to those who have done something wrong and have passed away without being paid back at all???
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. (revelation 3:19)
The Lord is a loving father who cares for our salvation and if this means punishing and disciplining us once in a while, then He will do so for our own good.
If someone is a drug addict and then he get an overdose and becomes really ill, it's a result of his actions, yet, if God wanted to spare him, he could (not a hair will fall from our head without His permission). So the fact that God would allow the person to get really ill might be a punishment to teach him not to do it again, or a wakeup call telling him to stop drugs.
I think God knows best what we need in order for us to become better people, sometimes He seems harsh, but He does it all out of love.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, and remember my weakness in your prayers..
God bless you all and keep you at all times
If He repented, than His sins will be forgiven to Him, and He will not be punished in Heaven... but He might get punished on earth.... all that matters is in Heaven ..
Yes, ok, but I'm focusing on punishment on earth.
What if a person is NOT punished on earth... what happens?? does the punishment pass down to his kids?? do his kids pay a price for his sins??
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6669.msg89175#msg89175 date=1212441080]
Yes, ok, but I'm focusing on punishment on earth.
What if a person is NOT punished on earth... what happens?? does the punishment pass down to his kids?? do his kids pay a price for his sins??
that raises up another point.... Blessings arepassed down...
ex) God left Judea for the sons of David, because David was HIS servant... God did it for David althou David was long gone.... (it is mentioned in either 1st Chronicles or in 2nd Kings????)
Does God pay us back for what we've done to others??
I mean, if we know the difference between right and wrong... what happens to us if we know what's wrong and yet we do it?? Do we get paid back??
If yes, then what happens to those who have done something wrong and have passed away without being paid back at all???
There is a Biblical story about the rich man and the beggar: The rich man lived a life of luxury and extravagance while alive. There was a beggar man full of sores who ate with the dogs the scraps from the rich mans table. They both died. The rich man went straight to hellfire and eternal torment and damnation; he looked up and saw the poor beggarman in the Bosom of Abraham drinking the water of life, and he asked Father Abraham if he could have even a drip from the beggarman's water. He was refused. He asked if he could return to earth to warn his rich friends of their impending doom....he was refused.
The wages of sin is death. Thank God he has sent His Son to save us!!!
Yes, OK.. but despite David's repentance, he paid for his sins still. No?
This question is basically about ONE thing:
What goes around comes around. What u do to others will be done to u. Does this hold in Biblical Terms?
Do onto others as you would have them do onto you
Do onto others as you would have them do onto you
This is from the Bible:
Therefore all things whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do even so to them: for this is the law of the prophets.
Matthew, 7:12
So, when Christ says "This is the law of the Prophets" - what happens if you break that law???
WHat happens if I do to someone what I wish someone NOT to even think of doing to me?? What if I am not punished for that and I die?
"nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven."
Not that I am Roman Catholic, but their answer would be Purgatory as
"nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven."
But what about my question:
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. What if i do something to someone that I really would hate it if someone did it to me, and I was never punished for that??
What happens? Does the punishment pass onto generation? What happens?
That is why death has lost its sting. It still happens- but through it, we have a more glorious state- the Resurrection.
What was a punishment; has now become our purification. An opportunity to true life- realised only by the blood of Christ.
pray for me
joe
OK, say a woman commits adultery and then she repents, God is fine with that and forgives. But in the eyes of society, she is still punished - no one will marry her, and no one really wants to associate with her... sometimes the punishment on earth for sin is because of peoples view of things.
pray for me
joe
Hi joe,
So u are saying that God allows us to be punished for our sins through others not accepting us?
But.. that's not my question (although that's an interesting point, i'd still like u to clarify that).
My question is this:
What happens if someone dies and is NOT punished on earth for what he/she has done?? What if they do not receive ANY punishment????
Should they be worried about their salvation or not??
About my point on the adulterous woman, what Im saying is that the punishment on earth can be in the form of society punishing us - not necessarily a direct punishment form a priest; all I was saying is that God can use society for punishment on earth.
pray for me
joe
Vas, if someone dies, has repented from their sin, God will not count their sin regardless of whether they received a punishment on earth or not,
About my point on the adulterous woman, what Im saying is that the punishment on earth can be in the form of society punishing us - not necessarily a direct punishment form a priest; all I was saying is that God can use society for punishment on earth.
pray for me
joe
Its just that this priest in France, (a real theologiean by the way) was saying that in the Orthodox Church, we don't believe in purgatory. If you don't pay for your sins on earth, you will pay for them in the everlasting life. (and I repeat: we do NOT believe in purgatory). Get the picture here joe?
He gave us the following examples:
a) Moses who killed an Egyptian (sure , he had good intentions), but - because of this, God prevented him from seeing the Holy Land. He was a wanderer in the desert for 40 years. But he never lived to see the promised Land.
b) Jacob, he tricked his father to gain the blessing of the 1st born. He was also tricked by his uncle who married him the wrong woman. (see - punishment - what he did, he got it back in return!).
c) Joseph's brother's that tried to kill him because they were jealous of him, they ended up bowing down to him. What did that do to their jealousy?? Again punishment. They didnt like the idea that he felt he was better than then, and now he was their superior.
d) David - he slept with a married woman and killed her husband. I think what happened to him DESPITE his repentance was obvious. In fact, the Bible even mentions that his 1st born of this lady, God took away because he was the product of sin.
There are 100's of examples, but abouna was saying that its best to pay for your sins on earth, and be punished for them, then to safe-face and live than to die and spend the rest of your life in eternal damnation.
Now look, no one really knows whether Judas went to heaven or hell... do they?? For what? what did he do??? He had ONE sin that he didnt repent... ONE!! That's it?
But for sure, being an apostle, he served too with the rest. Was he entirely bad?? no!! He wasn't sooo bad. He just had a small weakness: love of money. He loved money more than he loved God. But this one small sin, because he never repented it, we are so uncertain, as a Church, that he ever made it to heaven.
Did he hang himself out of shame? out of dispair?? we don't know EXACTLY why. The church believes that he went to hell because he hanged himself thinking that his sin was greater than God's love for him to forgive him.. but we don't know whether he hanged himself out of punishment for his sins that he was too ashamed to live with what he had done?! No one knows for sure.
I do disagree with you on the point that if you aren't punished here you will be punished in hell instead. There is nothing that says this is a fact. God gave us the grace to be forgiven, if he forgave us and we repented then why do we need to punished? That is not fair necessarily. If we repented then why should we suffer? I think the pain is that we sinned against our Father who loves us. For example you commit adultery, you repent and confess(say before marriage) why should you have to reveal your sins to anyone and then not be able to get married? Do see what i'm saying? We don't have to literally be punished for everything we do, if you lie, and you confess and repent, if you aren't punished somehow on earth are you saying God will send you to hell for this? I sure hope not
A church father once said: a virtue which is acquired easily is not good
If we repent for killing someone for example and then we don't get any punishment at all and that's it, then what would stop us or others from commiting the same sin?
If it's so easy, why not sin more and just repent and then everything is fine???
No, God is just, yet also merciful. He will do what's best for you, whether this means punishing you so you're an example for others or so that you wouldn't become to arrogant or sparing you from a certain punishment, because He doesn't see it fit for you..
Please remember me in your prayers
God Bless
Remember when he killed the egyptian the ten commandments weren't written yet, so in a technical sense God did not yet say do not kill etc...
Hi JY,
No habibi.. that's where you are wrong BIG TIME. lol
Who told Joseph, the son of Jacob, that adultary was wrong? He was there BEFORE the 10 commandments came, and way way before Moses?? who told him that this was a sin??
God spoke to His people, and He told them what was right and what was wrong. Before the 10 Commandments, people KNEW what was sinful to God because He spoke to them; but its not written in the Bible. Its passed on from generation to generation. This is known as SPIRITUAL TRADITION.
Habibi.. welcome to the Coptic Orthodox Church - the reason why I am Coptic: Because of Spiritual Tradition. Things that are passed down to us, but were not written in the Bible.
God saved Noah why? Because those living with him were living in adultary and sin.. but did they know? Yes! God spoke to them, but they didn't listen. Only Noah obeyed. That's why the 10 Commandments were written in ROCK not in paper. The importance of keeping His Commandments are paramount.
Spiritual Tradition is a concept taught in the Coptic College in the Theology classes. Its what makes me proud to be Coptic.