[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6669.msg89330#msg89330 date=1212523273] I do disagree with you on the point that if you aren't punished here you will be punished in hell instead. There is nothing that says this is a fact. God gave us the grace to be forgiven, if he forgave us and we repented then why do we need to punished? That is not fair necessarily. If we repented then why should we suffer? I think the pain is that we sinned against our Father who loves us. For example you commit adultery, you repent and confess(say before marriage) why should you have to reveal your sins to anyone and then not be able to get married? Do see what i'm saying? We don't have to literally be punished for everything we do, if you lie, and you confess and repent, if you aren't punished somehow on earth are you saying God will send you to hell for this? I sure hope not
So, for the second issue: are we punished in the eternal life if we are not punished in this limited life?? Yes. We are.. but to what extent?? what happens?? this is why I'm asking. Now.. this is my question.
You agree JY that God punished moses for the murder of the egyptian, and he punished David for murder and adultary... so what then happens if you do these things in the secret and are NOT punished??? WHAT HAPPENS?!!!!
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Romans 9: 14-18
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6669.msg89370#msg89370 date=1212546651] [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6669.msg89330#msg89330 date=1212523273] Remember when he killed the egyptian the ten commandments weren't written yet, so in a technical sense God did not yet say do not kill etc...
Hi JY,
No habibi.. that's where you are wrong BIG TIME. lol Who told Joseph, the son of Jacob, that adultary was wrong? He was there BEFORE the 10 commandments came, and way way before Moses?? who told him that this was a sin??
God spoke to His people, and He told them what was right and what was wrong. Before the 10 Commandments, people KNEW what was sinful to God because He spoke to them; but its not written in the Bible. Its passed on from generation to generation. This is known as SPIRITUAL TRADITION.
Habibi.. welcome to the Coptic Orthodox Church - the reason why I am Coptic: Because of Spiritual Tradition. Things that are passed down to us, but were not written in the Bible.
God saved Noah why? Because those living with him were living in adultary and sin.. but did they know? Yes! God spoke to them, but they didn't listen. Only Noah obeyed. That's why the 10 Commandments were written in ROCK not in paper. The importance of keeping His Commandments are paramount.
Spiritual Tradition is a concept taught in the Coptic College in the Theology classes. Its what makes me proud to be Coptic.
QT i'm well aware of this, and that is why i'm Coptic too. I was just making a point and how Moses was not allowed to enter the Promise land because he disobeyed God later on, not for murdering the egyptian. I never said that it was allowed, Moses knew it was wrong and that is why he fled from the Pharoahs palace to live in the desert. and the story goes on.
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=6669.msg89372#msg89372 date=1212546786] so what then happens if you do these things in the secret and are NOT punished??? WHAT HAPPENS?!!!!
in secret??? GOD is every where... there is no such thing as secret....
didn't Jesus say that: For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light. Luke 8:17
When I say "in secret", i mean, if you do them, you are the only one who knows. (and OBVIOUSLY GOD). I mean, its to say that no one else around u knows...
Let's say I go and do something SO hurtful against someone. OK? And he doesn't complain. He doesn't tell anyone about what i've done to him. Everyone thinks that I'm still a good person. So, i repent for what I've done or just confess it, and i live a good life, and then I die. Now, what happens??
God allows us to be punished on earth (as we've seen from Moses's example). What if we are not punished?? What is our outcome in the everlasting life???
God is just!! He won't treat Moses by some special love than he will treat me. He loves us all the same. He will treat each one according to his/her knowledge. GIven now that we are Christians, and we KNOW the difference between right and wrong - what if we DO wrong and are not punished for it!??
God's punishment on Moses WAS His mercy!! GOd had Mercy on Moses by punishing him for his sin. (according to this abouna) - he had mercy on him in that because he was punished on earth, he was spared punishment in hell.
This aim of this thread is to put into examination / analysis Abouna's theory that we are punished on earth for our sins, and to examine what happens if we escape that punishment??
Comments
I do disagree with you on the point that if you aren't punished here you will be punished in hell instead. There is nothing that says this is a fact. God gave us the grace to be forgiven, if he forgave us and we repented then why do we need to punished? That is not fair necessarily. If we repented then why should we suffer? I think the pain is that we sinned against our Father who loves us. For example you commit adultery, you repent and confess(say before marriage) why should you have to reveal your sins to anyone and then not be able to get married? Do see what i'm saying? We don't have to literally be punished for everything we do, if you lie, and you confess and repent, if you aren't punished somehow on earth are you saying God will send you to hell for this? I sure hope not
So, for the second issue: are we punished in the eternal life if we are not punished in this limited life?? Yes. We are.. but to what extent?? what happens?? this is why I'm asking.
Now.. this is my question.
You agree JY that God punished moses for the murder of the egyptian, and he punished David for murder and adultary... so what then happens if you do these things in the secret and are NOT punished??? WHAT HAPPENS?!!!!
15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Romans 9: 14-18
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=6669.msg89330#msg89330 date=1212523273]
Remember when he killed the egyptian the ten commandments weren't written yet, so in a technical sense God did not yet say do not kill etc...
Hi JY,
No habibi.. that's where you are wrong BIG TIME. lol
Who told Joseph, the son of Jacob, that adultary was wrong? He was there BEFORE the 10 commandments came, and way way before Moses?? who told him that this was a sin??
God spoke to His people, and He told them what was right and what was wrong. Before the 10 Commandments, people KNEW what was sinful to God because He spoke to them; but its not written in the Bible. Its passed on from generation to generation. This is known as SPIRITUAL TRADITION.
Habibi.. welcome to the Coptic Orthodox Church - the reason why I am Coptic: Because of Spiritual Tradition. Things that are passed down to us, but were not written in the Bible.
God saved Noah why? Because those living with him were living in adultary and sin.. but did they know? Yes! God spoke to them, but they didn't listen. Only Noah obeyed. That's why the 10 Commandments were written in ROCK not in paper. The importance of keeping His Commandments are paramount.
Spiritual Tradition is a concept taught in the Coptic College in the Theology classes. Its what makes me proud to be Coptic.
QT i'm well aware of this, and that is why i'm Coptic too. I was just making a point and how Moses was not allowed to enter the Promise land because he disobeyed God later on, not for murdering the egyptian. I never said that it was allowed, Moses knew it was wrong and that is why he fled from the Pharoahs palace to live in the desert. and the story goes on.
so what then happens if you do these things in the secret and are NOT punished??? WHAT HAPPENS?!!!!
in secret??? GOD is every where... there is no such thing as secret....
didn't Jesus say that:
For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light. Luke 8:17
Let's say I go and do something SO hurtful against someone. OK? And he doesn't complain. He doesn't tell anyone about what i've done to him. Everyone thinks that I'm still a good person. So, i repent for what I've done or just confess it, and i live a good life, and then I die. Now, what happens??
God allows us to be punished on earth (as we've seen from Moses's example). What if we are not punished?? What is our outcome in the everlasting life???
God is just!! He won't treat Moses by some special love than he will treat me. He loves us all the same. He will treat each one according to his/her knowledge. GIven now that we are Christians, and we KNOW the difference between right and wrong - what if we DO wrong and are not punished for it!??
God's punishment on Moses WAS His mercy!! GOd had Mercy on Moses by punishing him for his sin. (according to this abouna) - he had mercy on him in that because he was punished on earth, he was spared punishment in hell.
This aim of this thread is to put into examination / analysis Abouna's theory that we are punished on earth for our sins, and to examine what happens if we escape that punishment??