Hello guys! Happy Easter!
Please allow me to ask you the following question: It's known that Egypt is officially an Islamic state with a significant number of faithful Christians. According to my experience, Egyptian are identified worldwide as "Arabs". Now the question is, what is more important to you; being a Christian, or having an Arab Identity?
I will be thankful for your answers!
Comments
The Orthodox church in England became compromised over one thousand years ago so we are always part of a forlorn minority in someone else's church.
Orthowiki states the following about phyletism:
“The term phyletism from phili (Hellenic: φυλή): race or tribe was coined at the Holy and Great pan-Orthodox Synod that met in Constantinople in 1872. The meeting was prompted by the creation of a separate bishopric by the Bulgarian community of Constantinople for parishes only open to Bulgarians. It was the first time in Church history that a separate diocese was established based on ethnic identity rather than principles of Orthodoxy and territory. Phyletism, however, should not be confused with patriotism (which was known at that time as φιλοπατρία) as the latter simply means devotion and loyalty to one's nation and/or culture and is not at odds with Orthodoxy.”
Individuals that have a phyletistic outlook emphasis more on cultural rites than apostolic traditions. It is also common among phyletistics to think than their church is above all other churches. For example you might hear them say “Our Coptic church is the most Orthodox Church and Egypt is the only country other than the holy land visited by the Holy Family.” Or you might hear another say “The fact only the Greek patriarch enter the tomb of Christ shows our Greek Orthodox is above the others”. One more example would be “Ethiopia has the Arch of the Covenant which shows Ethiopia’s Orthodoxy in cooperate the Old and New Testaments more than any other Orthodox. There are such statements among every group, which shows how common phyletistism is in Orthodoxy.
These statements are misguiding because they have some truth to them. Yes Egypt was visited by the Holy family, and yes the Greek patriarch enters the Tomb of Christ, and yes Ethiopia has the Arch of the Covenant; but does such kind of claims put one church above others.
We might be proud of our heritage but others also have heritages to be proud. It is this kind of pride that leads to the Great Schism. The Roman Catholics said “Peter found our church so we must be above the others” (This might be a very biased presentation of the Catholics point, forgive me if so.) Our Lord said “Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must become your slave.”
It can be said, in the broadest sense; one can be patriotic and Christian but not a Christian and phyletistic.
In Christ
Theophilus
Aidan, you said: "This question could be asked not only of Arabs but of Greeks, Russians, Ethiopians etc etc.". Well, you might be right, but you don't compare the identity of those nations with that of "Egyptians" and other states that proclaim officially as Arab states. Because the Arab identity in Egypt's case is a transnational one.
I was motivated to ask this question because I read in the other thread that says that Egyptian Christians are not allowed to visit Israel. In this context, I was able to sense that there is a big pressure on Egyptians to show their solidarity with other Arabs.
Would they show similar solidartiy with their spiritual brothers and sisters from Ethiopia if the nation of this country was attacked by Yemenis or Saudis? I really would like to learn from you guys how you think about this matter -- it's important for every Christian in the current world.
Thanks!
God bless
Just a quick comment. We are NOT arabs...arabs (moslems) are the largest group of people that occupy egypt. We are copts...but what really matters is our faith not our ethnicity.
God bless
NOT all arabs are muslims, there are christian arabs in Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Irak...
We have to differentiate between religion and ethinicity, there is nothing wrong with being both Egyptian and Coptic and being proud of both..
You don't have to choose between one or the other
And as for your question Melchior, if there was any struggle between any countries, I personally don't look at who is Christian and who is not, I look at who is right and who is wrong! Politics and religion should be kept separate!!!
When America (a 'christian' country if you will) invaded Irak (a muslim country), I was against the war and thus against American policies despite them being christian, I based my opinion upon my feeling for justice and fairness.
I think the worst thing would be for us to have a polarized world of muslims vs christians! This is exactly what's wrong in Egypt now, many muslims don't see themselves as Egyptians anymore but as part of the Muslim Nation (al umma al islameyah). I would hate for Copts to likewise think of themselves as not Egyptians but part of a Christian nation... Our national identity is something and our religious identity is something else, one is political, social, cultural and the other is spritual
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7881.msg102478#msg102478 date=1241226997]
Just a quick comment. We are NOT arabs...arabs (moslems) are the largest group of people that occupy egypt. We are copts...but what really matters is our faith not our ethnicity.
God bless
NOT all arabs are muslims, there are christian arabs in Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Irak...
We have to differentiate between religion and ethinicity, there is nothing wrong with being both Egyptian and Coptic and being proud of both..
You don't have to choose between one or the other
Not all arabs are muslim but you have to realize that we are not arab either. Us calling ourselves egyptian is what Coptic means. Coptic is not our Religion, Being Coptic is our ethnicity. Orthodox Christianity is our religion. With no offense to muslims but we are the true egyptians of the country and if they are polarizing we are the ones who "belong" there. I of course have nothing against them but you can't seperate and say being egyptian and coptic because its the same thing. Coptic=Egyptian
[quote author=Godislove260 link=topic=7881.msg102484#msg102484 date=1241257518]
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7881.msg102478#msg102478 date=1241226997]
Just a quick comment. We are NOT arabs...arabs (moslems) are the largest group of people that occupy egypt. We are copts...but what really matters is our faith not our ethnicity.
God bless
NOT all arabs are muslims, there are christian arabs in Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Irak...
We have to differentiate between religion and ethinicity, there is nothing wrong with being both Egyptian and Coptic and being proud of both..
You don't have to choose between one or the other
Not all arabs are muslim but you have to realize that we are not arab either. Us calling ourselves egyptian is what Coptic means. Coptic is not our Religion, Being Coptic is our ethnicity. Orthodox Christianity is our religion. With no offense to muslims but we are the true egyptians of the country and if they are polarizing we are the ones who "belong" there. I of course have nothing against them but you can't seperate and say being egyptian and coptic because its the same thing. Coptic=Egyptian
Yes, I completely agree, and I never said we were Arabs, but those of us who consider themselves Egyptians have to keep in mind that we are called the ARAB republic of Egypt... The word Coptic of course means Egyptian as you stated, but it is often used to point at the religion: Coptic Orthodox Christian... so when I used the word Coptic here I wasn't using its original meaning but what it has come to mean..
Also we must keep in mind that many Egyptian muslims are also Coptic in the sence that they are also 'real' Egyptians if you will, descendents of the ancient egyptians who changed their religion to Islam through the ages so they also are 'righteous' owners of the land, they 'belong' there if you will... (yet only egyptian christians are called copts both in Egypt and outside, which is again a proof of how the meaning shifted..)
all the palestinian Christians i met (and iraqis etc etc) sypmathise v strongly with the muslim/Christian/atheist palestinians and not with israel. this is also predominantly true of internet groups.
i didn't meet any arabic-speaking Christians sympathising with israel so far.
we are called, as Christians, to 'weep with those who weep' something i was doing a lot of in january this year.
yes, i don't agree with hammas, iran or anyone else 'wiping israel out', that is equally barbaric, but you only have to spend a couple of hours in palestine (i went before i was coptic! ;) ) to feel the injustice.
Of course, it's very sad to see fellow humanbeing suffering, wherever or whoever they are. But I am more concerned about the suffering and humiliation of fellow Christians in Egypt and some other Arab states. The Palestinian case is that we know in the present form, is artificially designed and orchestrated by evil forces. I have been to Israel, and I have been to the Gulf states, and I can only tell you that Palestinians and Arabs in Israel do have a much better life and freedom in Israel than in any other Arab state. What scares me is that nobody is crying over the suffering and inhuman treatment of Christians and „guest workers“ in those oil-rich Gulf States. Refuegee camps in Gazaa are like five star hotels in comparison to the ghettos where hundred of thousands of foreign workers live in the Gulf states.
Concerning the Palestinians, I really wish them love and peace, but, let's be honest, and remember that they have treated other people in and around Israel barbarically for thousand and thousand of years.
And Isaac on that day cursed the Philistines and said: "Cursed be the Philistines unto the day of wrath and indignation from the midst of all nations; may God make them a derision and a curse and an object of wrath and indignation in the hands of the sinners the Gentiles and in the hands of the Kittim.
29. And whoever escapeth the sword of the enemy and the Kittim, may the righteous nation root out in judgment from under heaven; for they will be the enemies and foes of my children throughout their generations upon the earth........... [Jub xxiv. 28-33]
I don't understand exactly what it is that you want or what you yourself think...
Are you against Arab Christians or Copts being patriots?
Do you see that as irreconciable with christianity?
We might have the Old Testament in common with the jews, but as far as I'm concerned, that's all we have in common with Israeli Jews specifically.. We (Egyptian Copts) are Egyptian, we share the same culture with our Muslim brothers, we share the same taste in music, same sence of humor, same outward appearence etc. and those of us who love Egypt, share the same love for their country...
And I'm sure that Lebanese, Iraki, Syrian christians can say the same thing!
The important thing is to have a seperation between one's identity as a christian and one's ethnic identity so as not to confuse one with the other! Meaning, one should not influence the other or be dependent on the other, church tradition and dogma are not to be confused with national cultural traditions..
And by the way, I thought us christians were supposed to stand up for what's right, not just for 'people with whom we share a common identity',. When a Muslim is wronged, treated without justice, then I, as a Christian should stand by him and defend him, because unjustice was done to him, that is Christianity as I understand it... Our church teaches us to treat everyone with equality and not to differentiate in our love between Muslims and Christians (or any other religion for that matter).
Gb
Dear Melchior,
I don't understand exactly what it is that you want or what you yourself think...
Are you against Arab Christians or Copts being patriots?
Do you see that as irreconciable with christianity?
We might have the Old Testament in common with the jews, but as far as I'm concerned, that's all we have in common with Israeli Jews specifically.. We (Egyptian Copts) are Egyptian, we share the same culture with our Muslim brothers, we share the same taste in music, same sence of humor, same outward appearence etc. and those of us who love Egypt, share the same love for their country...
And I'm sure that Lebanese, Iraki, Syrian christians can say the same thing!
The important thing is to have a seperation between one's identity as a christian and one's ethnic identity so as not to confuse one with the other! Meaning, one should not influence the other or be dependent on the other, church tradition and dogma are not to be confused with national cultural traditions..
And by the way, I thought us christians were supposed to stand up for what's right, not just for 'people with whom we share a common identity',. When a Muslim is wronged, treated without justice, then I, as a Christian should stand by him and defend him, because unjustice was done to him, that is Christianity as I understand it... Our church teaches us to treat everyone with equality and not to differentiate in our love between Muslims and Christians (or any other religion for that matter).
Gb
Dear Godislove, I understand your point. But, isn't it a contradiction to say "We (Egyptian Copts) are Egyptian, we share the same culture with our Muslim brothers" and, at the same time to conclude that Copts are not Arabs?
Honestly speaking, I care less about the fate of Arab Moslems than Arab Christians, and I still do believe that the Bible teaches us to love, first, those who are similar in Spirit with us. I don't think that you, as a Christian would deny that.
You said, "Our church teaches us to treat everyone with equality and not to differentiate in our love between Muslims and Christians", well this is your point, and I respect that, but why isn't anyone on this, and many other Christian Forums, showing his/her solidarity and love towards those Christian minorities in Iraq? If we are showing it to Eritrean Christians, why don't we show it to the Arab Christians? Does the love, you've just accentuated, for Arab identity an imediment to speak out freely when it comes to talling the maltreatment of Palestinian Moslems against their fellow Christians? I don't know the reason why one is reluctant to talk about this subject. I think, while Arab Moslems have been able to abandon "Pan-Arabism", and see in Islam as a potent weapon to fight their enemies, Arab Christians are still stuck in the Arab Myth, that doesn't exist. Please correct me if I am wrong, but that's the way I see it.
Dear Melchior, I don't see any contradiction in what I said, Copts indeed are not Arabs, but you have to remember that we do share a lot with them, also, remember that most Egyptians are ethnically Copts, meaning descendents of the ancient Egyptians (thus also not Arabs)... I would love to give you the example of Sham el Nessim, an ancient Egyptian festival celebrated by all Egyptians, Moslems and Christians..
Egypt's culture is very unique, we have a mixture of Arab influences, yet also ancient Egyptian, and especially in cities like Alexandria, Greek and somewhat Italian influences... and some Turkish too
And it is this Egyptian culture, that is shared by all Egyptians. It was both the Muslims and Christians that fought side by side for our independance from the English. No Copt back then said, oh the english are christian and are nearer to me than the muslims, thus I love being occupied. Maybe you are too influeced with the negative things you hear about Egyptian unity, but if you were to speak to the real Egyptians, mostly people from older generations, you'll discover how much we are alike( egyptian muslims and christians) and how unique our culture is.
Honestly speaking, I care less about the fate of Arab Moslems than Arab Christians, and I still do believe that the Bible teaches us to love, first, those who are similar in Spirit with us. I don't think that you, as a Christian would deny that.
Actually, I disagree with you, and I do that as a Christian, our Lord, to Him be all praise and glory said: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor[g] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,[h] 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors[j] do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Our love should be unconditional, and we should not be prejudiced toward anyone just because we share the same faith, for I assure you some Muslims would make better christians, than many of us, so that would make THEM closer to us in Spirit ( to use your wording..)
For example: I'm more comfortable talking to an openminded Muslim who loves all, than one who doesn't have love in his heart, yet calls himself christian..
[i]You said, "Our church teaches us to treat everyone with equality and not to differentiate in our love between Muslims and Christians", well this is your point, and I respect that, but why isn't anyone on this, and many other Christian Forums, showing his/her solidarity and love towards those Christian minorities in Iraq? If we are showing it to Eritrean Christians, why don't we show it to the Arab Christians? Does the love, you've just accentuated, for Arab identity an imediment to speak out freely when it comes to talling the maltreatment of Palestinian Moslems against their fellow Christians? I don't know the reason why one is reluctant to talk about this subject. I think, while Arab Moslems have been able to abandon "Pan-Arabism", and see in Islam as a potent weapon to fight their enemies, Arab Christians are still stuck in the Arab Myth, that doesn't exist. Please correct me if I am wrong, but that's the way I see it.
I'm as much against injustice done to a Hindu, a Christian Arab, Chinese, A Buddhist, a Muslim, an Atheist, etc.
Injustice is injustice!
There is no impediment whatsoever, for me personally, to claim I'm a Patriottic Egyptian who is against the maltreatment of the Palestinians by Israel AND about any other maltreatment to any other group of people!
I do very much HATE the idea of standing by someone or not standing by them based on their religion, I feel that goes against what Christ taught us, but that's just my opinion...
Gb
I do very much HATE the idea of standing by someone or not standing by them based on their religion, I feel that goes against what Christ taught us, but that's just my opinion...
Dear Godislove,
"HATRED" is a sin, as dear Peterfarington would say it.
Our love should be unconditional, and we should not be prejudiced toward anyone just because we share the same faith, for I assure you some Muslims would make better christians, than many of us, so that would make THEM closer to us in Spirit ( to use your wording..)
For example: I'm more comfortable talking to an openminded Muslim who loves all, than one who doesn't have love in his heart, yet calls himself christian..
If that's not self-hatred... please just tell where to find an open-minded Muslim. Aren't they few, very few. I know that there are wonderful Muslims, somewhere who don't go on the path Mohammed told them to go, but rediculing your fellow Christians is just not right. How could you love your enemies, if you are not capable of loving your own spiritual brothers?
Dear Godislove, I have never heard that a child of God by faith in Christ Jesus who has been baptized into Christ could possibly be a spiritual brother to a child of the anti-Christ. Isn't Islam, that doesn't accept our Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and which permits its followers to murder children of the one true God, the anti-Christ!?
“Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. ” {1John 2:22}
Brother Goddislove, I sincerely recommend to you to internalize the story of Joseph about his solidarity with his brothers who hated him for the sake of self-hatred {Genesis 45:1-15}
Thank you for your explanation
Can I ask which Church you are a member of?
Many thanks
Father Peter
Is that OK to address you so? Please do let me know if there is any other alternative to "Father".
I belong to The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.
Thanks
Father Peter
Anyways, how come the majority of Ethiopian and Palestinian Christians sympathize with Israel, and the vast majority of Muslim Ethiopians and Palestinians with Muslim Arabs and the likes of Hamas, even Al-queda? Aren't we Christians taught to show our solidarity, first with those who share a common identity with us? Don't we Christians have much in common with the Jews than with the Moslems?
you seem to be generalizing .I for one support and sympathize with who is right .We as christians are supposed to show solidarity with truth and righteousness .Other than that you are simply begging the question to convince your own hidden agenda .Sorry for being so rude anyway...
If you did really belong to the etoc you would know that the only way to adress a priest is as father or abba in the etoc, so why did you need an alternative ???I think i am swaying away from the topic anyway .
Father Petre
Religions owe their success to suffering martyrs
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227103.800-religions-owe-their-success-to-suffering-martyrs.html
WHAT is the difference between Jesus Christ and Superman? The content of religions and popular tales is often similar, but only religions have martyrs, according to an analysis of behavioural evolution published this week.
When religious leaders make costly sacrifices for their beliefs, the argument goes, these acts add credibility to their professions of faith and help their beliefs to spread. If, on the other hand, no one is willing to make a significant sacrifice for a belief then observers - even young children - quickly pick up on this and withhold their own commitment. "Nobody takes a day off to worship Superman or gives money to the Superman Foundation," points out Joseph Henrich, an evolutionary anthropologist at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, Canada.
The more costly the behaviour, the more likely it is to be sincere: few would willingly give their life for an ideal they did not believe in, and devotees who take vows of poverty or chastity are clearly putting their money where their mouth is. Such credibility-enhancing displays are even more effective if performed by a high-status individual such as a priest or other leader, says Henrich.
Once people believe, they are more likely to perform similar displays themselves. Henrich created a mathematical model to test his ideas and showed that this self-reinforcing loop can stabilise a system of beliefs and actions, and help them persist through many generations (Evolution and Human Behavior, DOI: 10.1016/j.evolhumbehav.2009.03.005).
This dynamic helps explain why so many religions involve costly renunciations. For example, Henrich notes that the persecution of early Christians by Roman authorities may have spread Christian beliefs by allowing believers to be martyred for their faith - the ultimate credibility-enhancing display.
The principle applies to other social movements too. Studies of 19th-century utopian communes such as Hutterites and Shakers show that those making the strictest demands on their followers were most likely to persist, says Henrich. "You can see the changes in action. The number of those costly commitment rituals increases over time."
Henrich's analysis fills an important hole in our understanding of the rise of religions, says Richard Sosis, an anthropologist at the University of Connecticut in Storrs.
The hypothesis still needs to be tested, for example with lab experiments on belief transmission, and historical studies of religions. But if Henrich is right, churches that liberalise their behavioural codes may be sabotaging themselves by reducing their followers' commitment. This may explain why strict evangelical Christian churches are expanding in the US at the expense of mainstream denominations. "To be a member you've got to walk the walk and talk the talk," says Henrich. "And this transmits deeper faith to the children.
http://www.aina.org/news/20090613211135.htm
This is disgusting! I think the Egyptian state is up to a very tough fight against Christians. Whatever they do, those Islamists will never win this fight!
"Coptic Bishop Thomas of El-Qussia Diocese, Upper Egypt, gave a lecture last July at the Hudson Institute entitled "The Experience of the Middle East's largest Christian community during a time of rising Islamization." He talked about the dilemma of the Copts who kept their Christianity, and identity as Egyptians who have their own culture, in the face of their fellow citizens who have adopted an Arab culture and identity. "Now when you look at a Copt, you don't see only a Christian, you see an Egyptian who is trying to keep his identity versus another imported identity that is working on him," he said."
This is exactly the kind of Spirit I would like to see from my Coptic brothers and sisters.
My sincere prayers to those who had to suffer and be persecuted for leading a peaceful life!
I was just wondering what makes "Caucasian" societies believe that the "color" of a skin, or the so-called "racial" belonging of an individual is far more important than being a Christian? If we see the on-going wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, we clearly see that the NATO, as defender of the Caucasian race is doing every posssible thing to unite and help only Caucasian populations, like Afghans, Arabs, Persians or Turks -- irrelevant of their religious or cultural affinitiy to Islam. How is thit possible? Do they ever succeed in bringing different faiths and cultures together ignoring the fact that there is only one way, which is: "The Christian Way"?
Can you please tell me how Egyptian Coptic Christians relate to Southern Egypt "Nubians". What are the historical relationships between Coptic Christians and Nubians? Before Islam, Nubians used to be Christians -- so are there any Coptic Nubians now?
Thanks
I do have a very good serious history of Christian Nubia with many full colour photos.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Medieval-Kingdoms-Nubia-Christians-Muslims/dp/0714119474/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248699435&sr=1-1
Father Peter