[quote author=Melchoir link=topic=7881.msg105001#msg105001 date=1248694664] Greetings to all
Can you please tell me how Egyptian Coptic Christians relate to Southern Egypt "Nubians". What are the historical relationships between Coptic Christians and Nubians? Before Islam, Nubians used to be Christians -- so are there any Coptic Nubians now?
Thanks
Hi,
Basil Davidson is a world renowned Brit Historian. He is an expert in African history. The following Youtube videos might answer some of your questions.Due to lack of time, I only watched part 5 on the demise of christianity in Nubia . But I am certain all parts are as great.
i dont know my ethnicity nor do i care simply because it will not endure forever. i consider myself, since i was baptized, Coptic Orthodox. acts 17:26 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth" so ethnicity to me is meaningless because we are all of "one blood". our religion is our identity because ultimately it is what matters.
First, I would like to thank dear Hezkiel for posting those informative videos -- I am learning a great deal. I admire my Coptic Christian brothers and sisters who are struggling overcome all the tempations of Satan for the past 1400 years. Just last week, I read that sectarian violence is erupting in Egypt’s Minya province as local Christians again faced harsh reprisals from Muslims for trying to convert a building into a worship facility. Aain, this is clearly the work of devil and his adversaries. May the Almighty God give you/us the strength to the End of Times! Amen!
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=7881.msg105066#msg105066 date=1248982288] i dont know my ethnicity nor do i care simply because it will not endure forever. i consider myself, since i was baptized, Coptic Orthodox. acts 17:26 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth" so ethnicity to me is meaningless because we are all of "one blood". our religion is our identity because ultimately it is what matters.
Dear Ioaness, this is exactely my point! But, I think more than 90% of peoples around the world (Christians) see their ethnic identity first and only then, their faith. With the Muslims, it's quite the contrary. Islam as the most effective tool of imperialism is created to promote the Arabian cultural hegemony worldwide. That's why I brought up this subject to illustrate that non-Arab Muslims and Christian "Arabs", including Copts have fallen into the trap of Arab culture which could, in the long run, undermine their Christian faith and "identity." If the Malaysians say that Catholics in Malaysia are not allowed to use the term "Allah" for God, what's the reason for Christian Arabs to use the word "Allah" for the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Is the imported culture and identity more important than the indigeneous, yet universal Christian faith and identity?
It seems to me you may be expressing some of your own politically oriented trends?
Though Christ is the Head of the Church and the true Orthodox faith is essentially the same everywhere, still every Christian nation being a part of this Church has and will always have its own unique language, traditions and some specific customs. Each Church will also have its own spiritual leaders and its priests. For ever, the Lord is the only possible Highest Authority: He is the only King and no man can claim this position. That's the way the Lord wills the Church to be: He is the One uniting all.
About the word Allah (remember it's used only in arabic) I thought like you once, after somebody flamed me against it.. but it was so just for few days. By looking around for reliable info, by asking knowledgeable persons and also by reading, I found it is wrong to support this idea. First we should trust more our priests and our Aboun/Patriarchs: they must have thought a lot about this issue before deciding to use this word in the arabic Bible, Liturgies and prayers.
I have been impressed by the Ethiopian Orthodox, how they are good faithful people and so deep spiritually, also by their great Saints, Martyrs and monks and how they were protected by God during all their history, from the time of the ancient Christian kings and their great civilizations. They have built huge Christian works of art, colossal wonders built with the power of Love. They are indeed an very important real Orthodox Church.
They are people living in mutual respect, sincere faith in Christ, love and peace of soul. For example no child raised in good faith can show disrespect to his father or any elder. They know how to pray with humility, praise and sing hymns and understand very well the Apostolic legacy of the Christian Faith.
They are highly intelligent, also cautious, people though very tolerant. But to say liberal.. it's such a big word.. No. Fortunately, the majority of the Ethiopian people are very Orthodox in faith, meaning they keep the once given tradition and the Sacraments. They are conventional and classic, like us. They are also very strong and enduring people, I admire their lifetime dedication to the Lord.
I don't quite understand what you're trying to reach by this discussion.
There is no paradox in a person being both religious, loving his/her God AND nationalistic, loving his/her country.
Using the Arabic language does not undermine our Orthodox religion in any way, if some Maleysian Muslims think that Christians using the word Allah is an issue, then it is their problem, but I think that we should not busy ourselves with such things.
Our religion transcends linguistic and cultural differences between us, and as long us we know that, there is no problem with each of us being proud of their culture, language, country, etc.
I still do think that this case is very serious, and whether it has got a political accent or not, soon we all have to deal with it. We are living in a secular world which is ruled by Satan.
Please do allow me to ask the following question: I mentioned the Malaysian case about the use of the nominal word, "Allah", let's come back to Egypt: let's say, in the coming years the Muslim Brotherhood will be in power. Once the group has come to power, there is no doubt, that it will make the life of Coptic Chritians a lot harder than now. It might even prohibit Coptic Christians from using the word "Allah". So, what would you do? What would Coptic Christians do?
In my opinion Coptic Christians won't worry themselves with such things because firstly if, God forbid, the Muslim Brotherhood should come to power the usage of the word Allah will be last thing on everyone's mind as the political, economical and cultural changes in Egypt would be far deeper than that... A party that doesn't believe in Egypt but in the Islamic Nation is a dangeour to the whole of Egypt, not just the Coptic Christians...
Secondly, and most importantly, the Coptic Christians have been living in Egypt for 2000 years now, and have been through a lot, but persevered because of a promise made to the Church by the Lord: the gates of hell won't prevail against us! This promise is an eternal assurance that we shouldn't worry because we have the Almighty to take care of our problems...
[quote author=Melchoir link=topic=7881.msg105178#msg105178 date=1249504158] It might even prohibit Coptic Christians from using the word "Allah". So, what would you do? What would Coptic Christians do?
Thanks!
Hi Mel,
Islam has no ownership on the term 'Allah'.The term existed long before the advent of islam in Ancient Arabia. Remember that the Prophet Mohammed ordered the explusion of all Jews and Christians on his death-bed. These "people of the book" as he used to call them initially (later when he became powerful,they were demoted to the level of 'infidels') had used the term Allah in their prayers to God. Many teachings in Islam come from Christianity,Judaism and Paganism.Thus, the muslim jihads have no monopoly to claim that the term "allah' is Islamic in origin.
As John explained, I also believe the wise fathers adopted the term "allah" after a careful deliberation. Possibly,there were political implications, meaning, adopting the term' allah' in Christianity in those days had been a great way to convince the mulsim invaders that the christians were not infidels but believe in a living God similar to theirs.Othewise, if it was possible to translate and transform the Greek name 'Christdolous" into the arabic" abdelmessih",the wise fathers would have done the same with the term 'Theos', but I think they did not find it necessary as long as the loving Allah of Christianity is distinct and is identified with three Godheads.
Thanks, brother Hezkiel! Better late than never, I've seen it for a long time.
I find this subject very important in the current world. I don't understand why a lot of people do try to avoid race or faith related questions. How long are they going to keep it as a taboo? I found similar discussions on a recent BBC Blog:
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=7881.msg107104#msg107104 date=1256221017] This is an easy one for me. I am coptic but im not an arab. I am actually an american convert.
Ioannes, good for you, you will never regret it! But, would you be angry or even disappointed if someone from a Coptic cummunity in Cairo shows you a worse treatment than an Arab Muslim, because: A. You don't speak Arabic B. You have a different sense of humour from an Arab C. May be, your skin color is not like a Middle Eastern-Arab like. How would you feel?
hi who are these dodgy copts you know? i have visited 5 coptic churches (in uk) in addition to my own, and had no trouble for having white skin and speaking terrible arabic! there's no big deal if someone says they are jewish by birth but not by religion, equally i have no trouble saying i am coptic Christian by religion but not coptic by birth. ok, so my boss did ask me if i was muslim when i explained to him about fasting, but in this way i identify even more strongly with my slightly browner friends in the church!
[quote author=Melchoir link=topic=7881.msg107105#msg107105 date=1256222026] [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=7881.msg107104#msg107104 date=1256221017] This is an easy one for me. I am coptic but im not an arab. I am actually an american convert.
Ioannes, good for you, you will never regret it! But, would you be angry or even disappointed if someone from a Coptic cummunity in Cairo shows you a worse treatment than an Arab Muslim, because: A. You don't speak Arabic B. You have a different sense of humour from an Arab C. May be, your skin color is not like a Middle Eastern-Arab like. How would you feel?
People will be people. Just because someone is Coptic does not automatically make them nice or pious. I know a surgeon in the hospital I work and he is far from nice, a great surgeon though. He has been caught with women at his work and is known to be downright mean. While it disappoints me very much, it wouldn't matter what nationality the person is, that is just how people can be sometimes. I lived in Africa before, I had a couple of bad experiences but nothing terrible. Nationality matters not to me.
Comments
Greetings to all
Can you please tell me how Egyptian Coptic Christians relate to Southern Egypt "Nubians". What are the historical relationships between Coptic Christians and Nubians? Before Islam, Nubians used to be Christians -- so are there any Coptic Nubians now?
Thanks
Hi,
Basil Davidson is a world renowned Brit Historian. He is an expert in African history. The following Youtube videos might answer some of your questions.Due to lack of time, I only watched part 5 on the demise of christianity in Nubia . But I am certain all parts are as great.
1)The Great African Kingdom of Egypt---
2)The Ancient African Kingdom of Cush/Nubia---
3) Modern Cushites/ Nubians--
4)Modern Cushites/ Nubians (continued)---
5)Christian Nubia and Its Demise--
Hello!
First, I would like to thank dear Hezkiel for posting those informative videos -- I am learning a great deal. I admire my Coptic Christian brothers and sisters who are struggling overcome all the tempations of Satan for the past 1400 years. Just last week, I read that sectarian violence is erupting in Egypt’s Minya province as local Christians again faced harsh reprisals from Muslims for trying to convert a building into a worship facility. Aain, this is clearly the work of devil and his adversaries. May the Almighty God give you/us the strength to the End of Times! Amen!
i dont know my ethnicity nor do i care simply because it will not endure forever. i consider myself, since i was baptized, Coptic Orthodox. acts 17:26 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth" so ethnicity to me is meaningless because we are all of "one blood". our religion is our identity because ultimately it is what matters.
Dear Ioaness, this is exactely my point! But, I think more than 90% of peoples around the world (Christians) see their ethnic identity first and only then, their faith. With the Muslims, it's quite the contrary. Islam as the most effective tool of imperialism is created to promote the Arabian cultural hegemony worldwide. That's why I brought up this subject to illustrate that non-Arab Muslims and Christian "Arabs", including Copts have fallen into the trap of Arab culture which could, in the long run, undermine their Christian faith and "identity." If the Malaysians say that Catholics in Malaysia are not allowed to use the term "Allah" for God, what's the reason for Christian Arabs to use the word "Allah" for the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Is the imported culture and identity more important than the indigeneous, yet universal Christian faith and identity?
Thanks
It seems to me you may be expressing some of your own politically oriented trends?
Though Christ is the Head of the Church and the true Orthodox faith is essentially the same everywhere, still every Christian nation being a part of this Church has and will always have its own unique language, traditions and some specific customs. Each Church will also have its own spiritual leaders and its priests. For ever, the Lord is the only possible Highest Authority: He is the only King and no man can claim this position. That's the way the Lord wills the Church to be: He is the One uniting all.
About the word Allah (remember it's used only in arabic) I thought like you once, after somebody flamed me against it.. but it was so just for few days. By looking around for reliable info, by asking knowledgeable persons and also by reading, I found it is wrong to support this idea. First we should trust more our priests and our Aboun/Patriarchs: they must have thought a lot about this issue before deciding to use this word in the arabic Bible, Liturgies and prayers.
Here is a quick reference and links to read and start re-think about this issue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism
Otherwise, I'd like to read your suggestion for an alternative arabic Name/Title.
I have been impressed by the Ethiopian Orthodox, how they are good faithful people and so deep spiritually, also by their great Saints, Martyrs and monks and how they were protected by God during all their history, from the time of the ancient Christian kings and their great civilizations. They have built huge Christian works of art, colossal wonders built with the power of Love. They are indeed an very important real Orthodox Church.
They are people living in mutual respect, sincere faith in Christ, love and peace of soul. For example no child raised in good faith can show disrespect to his father or any elder. They know how to pray with humility, praise and sing hymns and understand very well the Apostolic legacy of the Christian Faith.
They are highly intelligent, also cautious, people though very tolerant. But to say liberal.. it's such a big word.. No. Fortunately, the majority of the Ethiopian people are very Orthodox in faith, meaning they keep the once given tradition and the Sacraments. They are conventional and classic, like us. They are also very strong and enduring people, I admire their lifetime dedication to the Lord.
GBU
I don't quite understand what you're trying to reach by this discussion.
There is no paradox in a person being both religious, loving his/her God AND nationalistic, loving his/her country.
Using the Arabic language does not undermine our Orthodox religion in any way, if some Maleysian Muslims think that Christians using the word Allah is an issue, then it is their problem, but I think that we should not busy ourselves with such things.
Our religion transcends linguistic and cultural differences between us, and as long us we know that, there is no problem with each of us being proud of their culture, language, country, etc.
I still do think that this case is very serious, and whether it has got a political accent or not, soon we all have to deal with it. We are living in a secular world which is ruled by Satan.
Please do allow me to ask the following question: I mentioned the Malaysian case about the use of the nominal word, "Allah", let's come back to Egypt: let's say, in the coming years the Muslim Brotherhood will be in power. Once the group has come to power, there is no doubt, that it will make the life of Coptic Chritians a lot harder than now. It might even prohibit Coptic Christians from using the word "Allah". So, what would you do? What would Coptic Christians do?
Thanks!
Secondly, and most importantly, the Coptic Christians have been living in Egypt for 2000 years now, and have been through a lot, but persevered because of a promise made to the Church by the Lord: the gates of hell won't prevail against us! This promise is an eternal assurance that we shouldn't worry because we have the Almighty to take care of our problems...
It might even prohibit Coptic Christians from using the word "Allah". So, what would you do? What would Coptic Christians do?
Thanks!
Hi Mel,
Islam has no ownership on the term 'Allah'.The term existed long before the advent of islam in Ancient Arabia. Remember that the Prophet Mohammed ordered the explusion of all Jews and Christians on his death-bed. These "people of the book" as he used to call them initially (later when he became powerful,they were demoted to the level of 'infidels') had used the term Allah in their prayers to God. Many teachings in Islam come from Christianity,Judaism and Paganism.Thus, the muslim jihads have no monopoly to claim that the term "allah' is Islamic in origin.
As John explained, I also believe the wise fathers adopted the term "allah" after a careful deliberation. Possibly,there were political implications, meaning, adopting the term' allah' in Christianity in those days had been a great way to convince the mulsim invaders that the christians were not infidels but believe in a living God similar to theirs.Othewise, if it was possible to translate and transform the Greek name 'Christdolous" into the arabic" abdelmessih",the wise fathers would have done the same with the term 'Theos', but I think they did not find it necessary as long as the loving Allah of Christianity is distinct and is identified with three Godheads.
I find this subject very important in the current world. I don't understand why a lot of people do try to avoid race or faith related questions. How long are they going to keep it as a taboo? I found similar discussions on a recent BBC Blog:
http://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2009/09/08/what-should-you-belong-to-first-your-religion-your-country-or-something-else/
This is an easy one for me. I am coptic but im not an arab. I am actually an american convert.
Ioannes, good for you, you will never regret it! But, would you be angry or even disappointed if someone from a Coptic cummunity in Cairo shows you a worse treatment than an Arab Muslim, because: A. You don't speak Arabic B. You have a different sense of humour from an Arab C. May be, your skin color is not like a Middle Eastern-Arab like. How would you feel?
i have visited 5 coptic churches (in uk) in addition to my own, and had no trouble for having white skin and speaking terrible arabic!
there's no big deal if someone says they are jewish by birth but not by religion, equally i have no trouble saying i am coptic Christian by religion but not coptic by birth.
ok, so my boss did ask me if i was muslim when i explained to him about fasting, but in this way i identify even more strongly with my slightly browner friends in the church!
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=7881.msg107104#msg107104 date=1256221017]
This is an easy one for me. I am coptic but im not an arab. I am actually an american convert.
Ioannes, good for you, you will never regret it! But, would you be angry or even disappointed if someone from a Coptic cummunity in Cairo shows you a worse treatment than an Arab Muslim, because: A. You don't speak Arabic B. You have a different sense of humour from an Arab C. May be, your skin color is not like a Middle Eastern-Arab like. How would you feel?
People will be people. Just because someone is Coptic does not automatically make them nice or pious. I know a surgeon in the hospital I work and he is far from nice, a great surgeon though. He has been caught with women at his work and is known to be downright mean. While it disappoints me very much, it wouldn't matter what nationality the person is, that is just how people can be sometimes. I lived in Africa before, I had a couple of bad experiences but nothing terrible. Nationality matters not to me.