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I want to understand JUDGING!
Hi,
I really thought I understood this topic.. but i still find it elusive.
Is judging bad? Is it wrong?
OK.. let's learn from examples. Please answer ONLY with examples, otherwise, we're never going to get anywhere with this topic.
Here's an example.
I was in the altar - and I wasn't a deacon, yet during the Holy Communion, a few kids were joking around and making noise. I told them to be silent. THen this monk that was in the altar with them, told me to be silent and he told them to go on and play.
Now, I was telling this story to a deacon, as an example of how SOME Church servants try to be "cool" in order to win the favour of those they are serving. Ultimately, what is happening, rather than serving Christ to others, they end up serving themselves, and using Christ to advance their egos.
There is NO other way but to describe it like this. Its clear. In my opinion, such behaviour is wrong. Church servants who do this are in a grave danger. I have even seen Church servants joke around in prayer meetings and stop the entire class because they were too busy laughing with some of the youth in the class. Where is the respect for the Church in any of this?? Am I not allowed to make a judgement and say such behaviour is unfitting for the service in the Church??? I am not at all condemning anyone, nor saying that this person, or that servant, or person is going to hell, or not. That's not my job. But, is making such judgements bad????
I really thought I understood this topic.. but i still find it elusive.
Is judging bad? Is it wrong?
OK.. let's learn from examples. Please answer ONLY with examples, otherwise, we're never going to get anywhere with this topic.
Here's an example.
I was in the altar - and I wasn't a deacon, yet during the Holy Communion, a few kids were joking around and making noise. I told them to be silent. THen this monk that was in the altar with them, told me to be silent and he told them to go on and play.
Now, I was telling this story to a deacon, as an example of how SOME Church servants try to be "cool" in order to win the favour of those they are serving. Ultimately, what is happening, rather than serving Christ to others, they end up serving themselves, and using Christ to advance their egos.
There is NO other way but to describe it like this. Its clear. In my opinion, such behaviour is wrong. Church servants who do this are in a grave danger. I have even seen Church servants joke around in prayer meetings and stop the entire class because they were too busy laughing with some of the youth in the class. Where is the respect for the Church in any of this?? Am I not allowed to make a judgement and say such behaviour is unfitting for the service in the Church??? I am not at all condemning anyone, nor saying that this person, or that servant, or person is going to hell, or not. That's not my job. But, is making such judgements bad????
Comments
http://orthodoxsermons.org/sermons/dont-judge-just-dont-do-it
some of you church servants are just plain SCARY. yes. scary. i have seen how you 'teach' these kids to be silent and i hope you know that sometimes, even if your intentions are good, you lead them to stray. you lead them to not come to church and to not WANT to be in church. They are just kids, so teach them yes, but approach it correctly...be the example and they will follow. Please don't mistake my comment for an insult, i'm in no way trying to say that's what you did...but perhaps you went about correcting it wrong and the monk saw this. I highly doubt a monk wants to be 'cool'...but i could be very wrong.
regarding the children talking in the altar and the monk situation, i just want to put my two cents in....
some of you church servants are just plain SCARY. yes. scary. i have seen how you 'teach' these kids to be silent and i hope you know that sometimes, even if your intentions are good, you lead them to stray. you lead them to not come to church and to not WANT to be in church. They are just kids, so teach them yes, but approach it correctly...be the example and they will follow. Please don't mistake my comment for an insult, i'm in no way trying to say that's what you did...but perhaps you went about correcting it wrong and the monk saw this. I highly doubt a monk wants to be 'cool'...but i could be very wrong.
Telling kids playing in the altar during the most sacred part of the mass to be silent scares you? Running around, giggling is OK with you? These are 10/12 year old kids??
Im not slapping them, touching them, shouting at them, disrespecting them in anyway.. but you find it scary just me going "Shhh!!" to them as being bad? And you think the monk was right to shout at me and tell them to keep on joking? He laughed with them and giggled with them.
That's OK for you?
OK.. that's fine. What do I know? But I believe that if they want to play and joke around, they can do so outside the Church as it distracts others from praying, and that's bad. Perhaps someone has something important to pray about?
I'm NOT a sunday school teacher, and Im not there to teach them anything. In fact, they were the sons of Church servants anyway. I am someone who has the RIGHT to pray and not be distracted. Its not fair to distract people this way.
Going on back to the subject, this monk's attitude is something I've seen in many servants who think it is cool to let the children like you in this way.
Now, is that judging??! Is that bad what I have said? Is me looking at this monk's action in this way something bad? Should I have not said anything???
Do I not have rights also as a worshipper in the Church??
That monk could be a saint for all i know, but it still doesn't mean he should encourage kids playing in the altar.
That's just not on.
So - FINALLY!! IS IT WRONG TO HAVE SAID WHAT I HAVE SAID???
That monk could be a saint for all i know, but it still doesn't mean he should encourage kids playing in the altar.
That is judging, I think. You shouldn't be telling yourself what a person should or shouldn't do as if you know what is right or wrong (eg making yourself the judge over them). If a monk, or any elder, commands you to do something, you should take it in with gratitude and acceptance. God asks us to hate the sin, but love the sinner, and forgive them. It's hard, I know!
When you told those children to stop making commotion in church, were you judging them? No! It's not wrong to judge people's actions. It's actually our duty.. how else will we remain an orthodox faith!
However, there is a difference between judging a person and judging their actions, and although it's a VERY THIN line, one can lead us to destruction and one can save a multitude of people; "Do not judge by appearance, but judge with right judgement" John 7:24
This is how I like to think of it, an example as you requested..
After you see someone doing any action, and thoughts arise in your head, could you conclude from those thoughts:
a. What a saint, God would be stupid not to take them into heaven.
b. That person can burn in hell for what he/she did. How dare they!
Both are examples of judging a person. Here are thoughts for judging their actions..
a. That was a good deed that he did, I should learn from him and do the same.
b. Those children are disrespecting God, I need to discipline them.
Sometimes we get carried away and tell God what He should/shouldn't do. It's as if we are chaining Him up to a chair and commanding Him to do what we think is right! It seems all irrational and heartless, especially for us christians, but that's the reality of it. Judging people should be left for the one true Judge. Judging actions should be left for each one of us; "Open your month, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy" Proverbs 31:9
I think that judging comes from self-rightousenos (two sins in one.. great combo, satan ;) ). If one can learn true humility, something I still have not learned, then he/she can overcome the sin of judging.
God promised us that we will not be judged if we judge no one (Matthew 7:1). That verse should make us all think twice before judging anyone, since our eternal life is at stake!
The Lord be with us all.
I would have done what you did to the letter.
The only difference is, depending on my relation to said monk, whether he was just visiting or whether he was a permanent priest, would be to approach him after the Liturgy and politely make inquiry as to his reasoning.
I will add: God the Father is quite exact and deliberate, the Son conducted Himself with authority and organization, and the Holy Spirit grants Wisdom.
If you conducted yourself, as stated, I find nothing wrong with it. I suspect there was more fall out from this situation. Send me a PM, I'm curious. I find that the altar has become a Day Care Center.
Does anyone remember Palm Sunday?
?
I think there's been a HUGE misunderstanding here concerning this thread.
What I mean is: I DO NOT CARE if that monk is a saint, or not. I don't care, I don't want to know if he's someone good or bad. I don't kow.. i dont care.
See? All I care about is that he is quiet in the altar.
My judgement is THIS:
I said to a friend of mine, that the attitude (ATTITUDE) of such a monk was similar to many servants in the Church whom i have seen agree with DESTRUCTIVE or DISRESPECTFUL behaviour in the hope of winning the youth or people they are "serving".
That's all.
Is saying THAT wrong?
So.. you need to read the following statement in bold and blue below and and tell me if what I said is WRONG:
I said to a friend of mine, that the "attitude (ATTITUDE) of such a monk was similar to many servants in the Church whom i have seen where they have agreed with DESTRUCTIVE or DISRESPECTFUL behaviour in the hope of winning the youth or people they are "serving".
So, again, I will summarise:
Is me thinking the above statement in blue wrong. This is judging their action. I DO NOT care NOR want to know about their personal lives, nor their sins, nor if they are saints or not. ITS NONE OF MY BUSINESS. But what I care about is the action - and its effect!
Am I allowed to judge on that??
In my humble, yet bold opinion, YES.
You know what I hate? Sunday school servants behaving this way. Tryin to act cool to impress the youth, rather than showing Christ.
Now, I can be accussed of judging them. But I am judging THE ACTION. OK? And this action is destructive. Showing them Christ means visiting them when they are ill, helping them, asking about them, maybe they need comfort, or advice.. "For I was naked and you clothed me, for I was hungry and you fed me". This is showing someone Christ. But instead, they are showing themselves.
Even their knowledge becomes a tool to inflate their egos, rather than a tool to glorify God with. This is a judgement on their action. IS THAT BAD? They may be saints.. but:
The action comes across that way.
The effects of their actions are not fruitful but destructive
Their youth still have no respect for the Church.
Am I committing a sin by saying ANY OF THIS?
I've been saying that 20 million times, and no one listens.
The question then comes: "Why are the youth without respect?" "Why do they not care about the House of God?" and the answer is: because you let them get that way.
It is because the servants are just "lazy", and they want to be "cool", and look "spiritual".
Our Lord was very organized, even with thousands around Him, He maintained full control and structure.
I wonder:
Do the angels wear flip-flops?
Do the angels run around the Heavenly Jerusalem?
I believe St. John was very instrumental in describing Heaven, and in effect it gives us the example for our own conduct.
How about the cell phones in the church? This Sunday, I saw one of those cool servants, with his 15 year old son, both texting away during the liturgy and in the altar. It was real cool. I felt ashamed that I did not take out my phone and check on the starting line-up for the Chicago Cubs.
You can talk about it until you are blue in the face, and it will not achieve anything. No body cares, and you are going to be at odds with the Kumbaya Generation.
You will drive yourself crazy, banging your head against the wall.
I agree with you fully, but I cannot help your struggle.
The world is being ruled by a bunch of banana cases.
In the case that Zoxasi presents, I would suggest that it is always proper to submit to the opinion of a senior, and in this case to allow him to manage the disorder (or not), since he had made a statement of his opinion. But it is then entirely reasonable and proper to quietly and humbly ask him afterwards why he allowed the children to misbehave. It may be that he had a good reason, or he may have a bad reason. Having learned the reason there seems to me to be no need to question it if he is a visitor, but the issue could then be properly raised with the local priest and his opinion asked. In the end the local priest should be most concerned about good order in worship though this is delegated to the senior deacons during a service.
If there were two boys beginning to be distracted in my own altar then I would expect one deacon to call one over to stand by him and give him something to do, and the other to call the other boy over and give him something to do.
I would not expect people to be using a mobile phone in the altar, and would express my views to the senior deacons and anyone else who needed to know. The responsibility for order rests with the priest, but in the liturgy it is the role of the deacons to keep order among the congregation and in the altar, and especially among those other ranks of servants who may be present.
The list of rules or instructions for altar servants we had posted here a while ago seemed very sensible and appropriate. I only have a few deacons and they are serious, but if I had more than I would expect that someone mucking about would not be able to serve in the altar for a while and would have to confess their inattention and disrespect towards Christ.
But it is the case that we must all model this behaviour ourselves. Priests should not be using mobile phones in the altar either. Priests should not chat to others about random things in the altar. There should be complete attention on Christ from all and service in the altar should be seen and taught to be the greatest privilege.
Father Peter
There is always in issue for me, what about me? How can I pray when there is so much commotion and movement? I am not a saint. I need quiet and reverence to achieve my aim of prayer and sacrifice. This is the question that is never answered by the "cool spiritualists" at my parish. I am not able to drown things out. How is it someone is able to take away my ethereal experience and that is considered okay? Someone takes away my experience with God, and that is okay?
The deacons, to a major extent, are just as ill-disciplined as the kids. The kids take the example from the deacons. The deacons talk in the altar, so guess what, the kids do also. The deacons take out their cell phones, and so do the kids. The deacons take naps in the altar, and the kids nap and roll around.
I can think back to my evangelical days, and even in our protestant communion, we started to get some folk who thought that children should be allowed to be 'free' to worship God, and make as much noise and distraction as they wanted, and this ended up as a prevailing view so that every child had to be given a musical instrument or shaker or bells to wave as hard as possible and prevent everyone else worshipping.
But it is surely and ultimately the responsibility of the priest to ensure that there is order in worship. What happens when a priest is approached and asked to do something about it? In my opinion having disrupted worship, and disrespectful worship, is a prime cause of people leaving the Church or staying just for cultural reasons. If people really and truly are able to meet God in the liturgy then they will not leave if they are converted, but if there is no reason to be there, because God is not worshipped in awe and with attention, then folk will prefer to clean the car on a Sunday morning. It is perhaps more peaceful.
If I was told I had a place on an Olympic squad but would have to commit myself to hard training then after a while I might give up, but probably as I became fitter I would not want to waste all of the effort I had already put in, and would clearly see the goal I was striving for. If I was told I was on the squad but wouldn't have to make any effort then I would pretty soon stop making any effort, would not bother turning up to training, and would drift away altogether, demanding my medal when everyone else had been rewarded for their years of effort. Kids don't value that which has no cost. We do not keep children in the Church by teaching them practically that what we have to offer is not worth very much, certainly not worth attention.
But what are the priests doing. If my deacons started talking I would say something afterwards, if only that it was impossible for me to give my own service while they were talking.
Father Peter
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9546.msg117671#msg117671 date=1281348637]
That monk could be a saint for all i know, but it still doesn't mean he should encourage kids playing in the altar.
That is judging, I think. You shouldn't be telling yourself what a person should or shouldn't do as if you know what is right or wrong (eg making yourself the judge over them). If a monk, or any elder, commands you to do something, you should take it in with gratitude and acceptance. God asks us to hate the sin, but love the sinner, and forgive them. It's hard, I know!
When you told those children to stop making commotion in church, were you judging them? No! It's not wrong to judge people's actions. It's actually our duty.. how else will we remain an orthodox faith!
However, there is a difference between judging a person and judging their actions, and although it's a VERY THIN line, one can lead us to destruction and one can save a multitude of people; "Do not judge by appearance, but judge with right judgement" John 7:24
This is how I like to think of it, an example as you requested..
After you see someone doing any action, and thoughts arise in your head, could you conclude from those thoughts:
a. What a saint, God would be stupid not to take them into heaven.
b. That person can burn in hell for what he/she did. How dare they!
Both are examples of judging a person. Here are thoughts for judging their actions..
a. That was a good deed that he did, I should learn from him and do the same.
b. Those children are disrespecting God, I need to discipline them.
Sometimes we get carried away and tell God what He should/shouldn't do. It's as if we are chaining Him up to a chair and commanding Him to do what we think is right! It seems all irrational and heartless, especially for us christians, but that's the reality of it. Judging people should be left for the one true Judge. Judging actions should be left for each one of us; "Open your month, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy" Proverbs 31:9
I think that judging comes from self-rightousenos (two sins in one.. great combo, satan ;) ). If one can learn true humility, something I still have not learned, then he/she can overcome the sin of judging.
God promised us that we will not be judged if we judge no one (Matthew 7:1). That verse should make us all think twice before judging anyone, since our eternal life is at stake!
The Lord be with us all.
Is this statement from TITL correct? The one above where I have quoted?
Is it logical?
I want closure on this subject.
"You shouldn't be telling yourself what a person should or shouldn't do as if you know what is right or wrong"
I do know what is right or wrong! And I'd be happy for someone to correct me if I did ANYTHING wrong. I once did something wrong and someone corrected me, and until this day, he is loved by me ONLY for that reason. I mean, we have nothing in common AT ALL, except the fact that i was going to do something wrong, and he stopped me.
He wasnt even a Christian!!
Can someone else here just tell me if TITL is talking sense??
I do understand that it is not always as I described it, I do understand.
I can think back to my evangelical days, and even in our protestant communion, we started to get some folk who thought that children should be allowed to be 'free' to worship God, and make as much noise and distraction as they wanted, and this ended up as a prevailing view so that every child had to be given a musical instrument or shaker or bells to wave as hard as possible and prevent everyone else worshipping.
But it is surely and ultimately the responsibility of the priest to ensure that there is order in worship. What happens when a priest is approached and asked to do something about it? In my opinion having disrupted worship, and disrespectful worship, is a prime cause of people leaving the Church or staying just for cultural reasons. If people really and truly are able to meet God in the liturgy then they will not leave if they are converted, but if there is no reason to be there, because God is not worshipped in awe and with attention, then folk will prefer to clean the car on a Sunday morning. It is perhaps more peaceful.
If I was told I had a place on an Olympic squad but would have to commit myself to hard training then after a while I might give up, but probably as I became fitter I would not want to waste all of the effort I had already put in, and would clearly see the goal I was striving for. If I was told I was on the squad but wouldn't have to make any effort then I would pretty soon stop making any effort, would not bother turning up to training, and would drift away altogether, demanding my medal when everyone else had been rewarded for their years of effort. Kids don't value that which has no cost. We do not keep children in the Church by teaching them practically that what we have to offer is not worth very much, certainly not worth attention.
But what are the priests doing. If my deacons started talking I would say something afterwards, if only that it was impossible for me to give my own service while they were talking.
Father Peter
I would LOVE to pray a mass with you one day.
When are you next in Stevenage?
Are you accepting converts into the British Orthodox Church? I would like to sign up.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9546.msg117791#msg117791 date=1281456425]
[quote author=TITL link=topic=9546.msg117679#msg117679 date=1281365321]
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=9546.msg117671#msg117671 date=1281348637]
"You shouldn't be telling yourself what a person should or shouldn't do as if you know what is right or wrong"
Forgive me; I was not referring to a person's actions. As I previously stated, it's ok for us to judge actions, but not ok to judge people.
Everything I have received (well you know what I mean) is from the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate. I have worshipped with a local Coptic Orthodox priest and tears were streaming down his face as he prayed the Fraction. There was no messing about by his deacons because what was happening was deadly serious.
When I pray the liturgy it would probably sound boring to you because I do not use the Coptic tunes. I am not more spiritual than anyone. But I know that my small congregation, and all the folk under the care of His Eminence Abba Seraphim, take the services of the Church very seriously, even though we are well aware of our own poverty.
That does not mean that when I have small children in the Church who become restless it makes me angry or frustrated. Not at all. I am glad that they have come to worship with us and I make a point of telling their parents how well behaved their children were. Restlessness is different from being undisciplined. And an embarrassed mother trying to shush a fidgety 2 year old is different from a deacon talking on his phone in the altar. I can't imagine what my bishop would say if I did that! In fact I wouldn't dream of doing that.
When I was in Constantinople for the enthronment of His Holiness Patriarch Mesrob II of the Armenian Orthodox Church, I had turned my phone off competely. I know I had. But right in the middle my wife rang me and somehow the phone started ringing. I was so embarrassed and ripped the back off the phone and pulled the battery right out.
Father Peter
I disagree about your comment about the Liturgy, I can hear the Liturgy in your posts.
Although, I would have to get used to the British accent. Do they speak English in England? [That's an Americanism]
There are times I have been in a liturgy prayed in English (not always in the Coptic Church) and not discovered the fact until halfway through!
How do you speak? Are you entirely American in your accent, or still Egyptian?
Father Peter
Is it OK to judge a person's actions? Not the person?
To me, I don't even judge the action. Even sometimes, i think my eyes can deceive me.. but What i think is wrong is that we punish the person when we judge them - which is DISGUSTING.
That's so wrong. I mean, I know this priest that judge's your actions ( which is OK), and then he punishes you for it by humiliating you.
That's wrong. Because how on earth does he know what he saw, what he experienced was correct? He does this without any consultation, without asking - NADA.
I hate that way. But for me, I analyse the action - and I see the result. If the result is destructive, then this confirms the action itself was also wrong.
So really, I spend a long time, not judging a person's actions, but thinking about all the options that could have led them to that actions. Then the result of the analysis comes when I see the product of their actions. Sometimes I get it right, sometimes, I get it wrong. But in the case where a servent does not reflect Christ, but TRIES to be popular, this is SO OBVIOUS, and the result is a lack of peace from them.
It seems to me that as a priest, and in my small congregation where I don't have so many problems of people to deal with, but as a priest, I should have a comprehensive and holistic approach the congregation in my care.
I was watching an episode of "Who do you think you are?" last night. It is a generally interesting family history programme, and family history is one of my hobbies. The person had an ancestor who was a vicar. They found a sermon he had published which berated his congregation for not turning up to Church and he came over as rather fierce. Later on, when the vicar died, a couple of sermons were preached at is memorial and it seemed that he was indeed rather fierce, complained that people didn't turn up to Church, but didn't visit them, and especially didn't visit the poor.
Now I don't want to be like that. I don't want to insist on good order only by shouting at people and preaching pointed sermons. It seems to me that what is required is a mix of teaching in the homilies about why we are gathered and what blessing could be ours if we paid attention and worshipped reverently. Perhaps some homilies about the role of various orders of people in the liturgy. They should not be moaning sermons about how awful people are, but encouraging ones, perhaps explaining how the children and young servants have a role.
But there should also be input in the conversations at confession, especially if the priest is aware that a person has some trouble concentrating or behaving appropriately. Again this should not be in the from of a complaint, but should be a practical encouragement to worship more attentively. Perhaps many servants are just not used to being still, and being still in the presence of God. I know that a Franciscan monk I used to know and spend time on retreat with, Brother Ramon, used to describe his visits to various churches to lead missions and he would say that they seemed unable and even afraid to be still at any point in their services which were filled with noise. In the case of some servants and children there is no experience of stillness and quietness in their lives at all and this needs to be developed in conversation with the spiritual father.
But then in the altar. I would hesitate to judge. Let's say that one of my older deacons suddenly pulls a phone out and leans into a corner and makes a whispered conversation. Then hangs up embarrassed. I would hesitate to respond at all, because he is a mature Christian and will have judged himself. Perhaps I would discover after the liturgy, when he came to apologise, that some close relative had been taken to hospital that morning and he was waiting for some dreadful news. It would be wrong of me to judge him without knowing anything other than that his phone rang and he answered it.
I remember once when I was a servant (as if I am less of one now), that the two young boys who served with us, (one was my son), suddenly became very excited and animated. It would have been possible to judge them immediately since their behaviour was a little distracting, but in fact a giant (GIANT) spider had walked across the altar area. One of the boys caught it and let it go outside. In fact there would have been more disturbance had they not acted quickly - not least because I really do not like spiders.
But of course there is bad behaviour in the altar as well. The role of the deacon is to keep order among the other servants. This is not a matter of judging. If I had leapt on the two young servants and ignored the reason for their animation then in that case I would have been at fault myself. But if they had started flicking bits of incense at each other then it is not a matter of judgement to intervene. To judge has some moral quality about it I think. We are saying more than - this is inappropriate behaviour - we are saying in some sense - you are a bad person. As a deacon there is no need to judge in that way. What is required is simply an authoritative request to change the bad behaviour. In the first place a finger over the mouth may be enough to bring the youth to attention. (I mean over the deacon's mouth, not the youth's). Then it may be required to have the youth stand beside the deacon and be given some job to do. If still the youth is mucking about then he should be given something to do outside the altar with a deacon, and if still mucking about then should be told to stand somewhere out of the way and asked afterwards why he was mucking about. But without judgement. The youth should be given a full opportunity to explain his behaviour. Perhaps he is waiting for an important exam result and can't concentrate on anything else.
If there were often problems then I would expect, as a priest, to have a meeting with all the deacons and servants and I would remind them all of the privilege of their service, and I would say that it is not a right, and that if people are unable to concentrate on the service then it is better not to serve half-heartedly. And I would address this to the oldest so that the youngest do not feel picked on. I would say that it is esy to come to Church and have worries about work still in our minds, then I would go down the ages using illustrations of the things we have on our minds at different points of our life.
It must be possible to have a well ordered altar. Where did those instructions we read come from? Someone seems on the ball. If there is a problem with talking in the altar then allow no talking there whatsoever except by a senior deacon. Do all arrive on time, if not then don't allow the servant to vest that day unless there is a very good excuse. Do all pray before the altar and prostrate themselves with attention before entering the altar?
None of us have the right to be there. I do not have the right to be there. It is deadly to our souls to be within the veil with a lack of attention and the priest must protect his flock by speaking out about abuses of the altar area, since otherwise the servants will become spiritually sick. This is what I mean by a comprehensive apporach being required. If I were in such a situation and simply shouted a lot it would not solve the real problem which is a spiritual one.
Let me ask some questions. Are there often too many servants in the altar so that folk have nothing of service to do? Is it too easy to become a servant? Is it too easy to continue to be a servant? Should we have an annual appraisal of our service so that we can be helped to improve and identify those areas that are a problem? We seem to have lost something of the spirit of the Church by losing track of what service means and what the different grades or orders of deacons are supposed to do. We should remember that in the past those who had care of the books and the vessels of the altar would truly have care for them and would die rather than give them up to the authorities.
Father Peter