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The Muslim Brotherhood and Coptic Christians
Can Someone here tell me what would life be for Coptic Christians IF the Muslim Brotherhood gained power?
I want to know. What would they do to us?
What would they do to Egypt?
In terms of marketing, they look me3afineen and disgusting, but perhaps that's not their fault.. they're not really smart looking, but then its not a beauty pageant either.
I would hate to see any of these bozos representing Egypt at an International Level. I'd be totally embarassed.
As far as I know, they are trying to re-invent themselves - pretending or making out that they are the party of Freedom, Democracy, Tolerance...
But what would it mean for the Coptic Orthodox Church if they took power? Do we really understand their agenda? They are saying that the Saudi Regime is not islamic
Iran is not Islamic
Pakistan is not Islamic.
What the heck is this??? All these countries calling themselves Islamic States, and not one of them is Islamic enough for the Muslim Brotherhood???
Look at this video:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/9384094.stm
What does this mean for the Coptic Church and for Egyptians in General who want a secular state??
Would they (the MB) be OK if a muslim converts to Christianity? Will they change the laws allowing for conversions? Would they kill apostates? Would there still your religion on your national identity card???
I want to know. What would they do to us?
What would they do to Egypt?
In terms of marketing, they look me3afineen and disgusting, but perhaps that's not their fault.. they're not really smart looking, but then its not a beauty pageant either.
I would hate to see any of these bozos representing Egypt at an International Level. I'd be totally embarassed.
As far as I know, they are trying to re-invent themselves - pretending or making out that they are the party of Freedom, Democracy, Tolerance...
But what would it mean for the Coptic Orthodox Church if they took power? Do we really understand their agenda? They are saying that the Saudi Regime is not islamic
Iran is not Islamic
Pakistan is not Islamic.
What the heck is this??? All these countries calling themselves Islamic States, and not one of them is Islamic enough for the Muslim Brotherhood???
Look at this video:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/9384094.stm
What does this mean for the Coptic Church and for Egyptians in General who want a secular state??
Would they (the MB) be OK if a muslim converts to Christianity? Will they change the laws allowing for conversions? Would they kill apostates? Would there still your religion on your national identity card???
Comments
-firstly Toba 29 says : fight (the arabic says kill) all those who do not believe in the last day or partake of what allah has refused etc...
the christians obviously, don't believe in their version of heaven, or have issues with things like pork, so we fall under this verse, and thus we must be persecuted.
the Koran also says that you shouldn't take the blood of a muslim for the blood of an infidel. That means that if a muslim kills a christian, you can't give him the death penalty because it was "just" an infidel. So we pretty much become targets.
We must also go back to paying gizya if we want to remain christian. otherwise we convert or die.
according to their hadith, they have this thing called 7ad el reda. its a law that says anyone converting away from islam must die.
thats the definition of an islamic state in regards to christians. To want extent to the MB want to go? obviously further than pakistan or Iran or saudi arabia...
As a comparison, you can notice our clergy as they go meet God, and lead the people in prayer, they put on vestments of purity.
What do they wear? ...shibshibs, no showers, smelly galabiyas, etc.
If you notice the Sheikh El-Azhar, and some of their elevated Imams with try to add a little flair to their outward robes like Pope Shenouda to try to elevate their "Me3afin" look.
"Me3afineen" is probably the most accurate term.
As a comparison, you can notice our clergy as they go meet God, and lead the people in prayer, they put on vestments of purity.
What do they wear? ...shibshibs, no showers, smelly galabiyas, etc.
If you notice the Sheikh El-Azhar, and some of their elevated Imams with try to add a little flair to their outward robes like Pope Shenouda to try to elevate their "Me3afin" look.
A lot of people are saying that these people never take showers or have a bath. I agree.. they don't look sharp.
But what is their agenda exactly? Ya3ni.. i think we all agree none of them are going to end up with a hot babe or a hot date - are they? But other than us losing out on having a really nice 1st lady - what else is going to happen???
What have they said concerning their manifesto??
Look at the violence going in Egypt.
This is Coptic attacking Coptic and muslim attacking muslim.
This is great.
We are ONE Country again. Religion has not divided us.
We have ProMubarak Coptic Christians attacking Anti-Mubarak Coptic Christians
and Pro-Mubarak Muslims attacking Anti-Mubarak Muslims.
Super.
I'm all for it. For once, NO ONE is attacking Coptic Christians because we are Coptic Christian!!!
Is there evidence of this?
Father Peter
Are there Copts attacking each other?
Is there evidence of this?
Father Peter
I know loads of Anti-Mubarak Coptic Christians and loads of Pro-Mubarak Supporters who are Christian.
Both groups are fighting. No one is looking for people with crosses to attack. Everyone is just looking for someone with a picture of Mubarak that isn't damaged or ridiculed to attack.
For once, we are not divided.
Because look:
The PRO-Mubarak supporters want one thing: NO MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD
The ANTI-Mubarak (secular) supporters want one thing: NO MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD
So, the good thing is - we are all generally fighting for the same thing. This is reassuring. It means, when mubarak leaves, it seems that the majority of people will be ANTI-Muslim brotherhood.
THAT EXPLAINS A LOT!! THat's why they want a coalition government!! That's their only route into power!! They can see that they are unpopular..
Oh wow.
Is there evidence of this?
well, if my facebook wall is anything to go by, there's a LOT of arguing between Copts over this. Some are pro-mubarak , some are anti-mubarak.
My cousins were anti-Mubarak.. some cousins are pro-mubarak..
Some are neutral.
Midan il Tahrir is not a Church. Its where the Egyptian Museum is. Muslims go to a Church to kill Christians, but they will go to Midan al Tahrir to attack anti-government protesters - Christians OR Muslims.
That's great.
It means a Coptic and a Muslim COULD be throwing stones at another Coptic/Muslim standing on the opposite side. Now, I'm not into violence, but I can tell you, this is not so bad. We are united at least. The country has found a new enemy. Its no longer Christian/Muslim divide, but political. That's great.
Do you have evidence of that?
I accept that there are people with different views, but you said that Copts are fighting each other.
Do you have evidence of that?
Of course! I would be the 1st one throwing a rock at the pro-Mubarak supporters - if I hit a muslim or Christian, I don't mind. LOL
This is FANTASTIC!!
It means that we've reached already a secular mindset. We are not fighting over religion anymore. This has taken the focus off religious differences.
The Muslim brotherhood joined the demonstrations at the LAST STAGE. It means that those who started this were all SECULAR Anti-Mubarak supporters. These are Egyptians who want a secular state, who want to separate EVERY level of society: State and Religion. That's GREAT!
Pro-Mubarak Supporters are Egyptians who just want ONE thing: Stability - and that means peace with israel, peace in Egypt, and no MB people running around in the streets.
This is a good sign for Egypt. The people just can't see what they've achieved.
The country is actually MORE united today than it was yesterday. Secularism is winning.
I feel ElBaradei is a TOTAL loser and trouble maker. He should not be trusted.
NO ONE ELECTED him as the spokesperson for secularist movements.
Please watch the above link. One of the radical muslim leaders in Europe talks truthfully about what he hopes/predicts will occur in Egypt with the brotherhood taking over and shari3a law spreading in the middle east. Watch the whole video if you can.
I highly doubt there are numerous copts at these protests at this point. They will be few and far between.
Have you done a survey!??
Out of 400 friends on Facebook, I am the ONLY one that has not protested.
The best person to ask is SODR - he's actually in Egypt, and he lives in a very pro-Muslim Brotherhood neighbourhood.
I just wanted to take this opportunity to say that I was extremely upset at the Pro-Mubarak demonstrators - even though I do not want Mubarak to leave immediately (this would be a disaster), but I doubt I'd have thrown anything - my apologies for this. I just know myself - Egyptians are the only people that know how to irritate me to the point of violence - LOL...
Anyway - MAYBE you are right.. maybe Copts are not involved.. but from what I can see, many are involved. In fact, I have images of Coptic Christians protecting muslims during their prayers in Tahrir square against attacks from Pro-Mubarak supporters.
This has united Egypt. I'm 99% sure that we have a situation of Secular Muslims/Christians against Radical Islamists in Egypt. Egyptians now have united against a common enemy: The Brotherhood.
This seems to be what I'm seeing.
Mubarak is right to hold onto power right now. He's EXTREMELY responsible. Everyone in Egypt (from my tweets and FB messages) are saying the same thing: The ONLY good thing that he did not "coward" his way out by leaving immediately.
We haven't even elected a new leader , yet we want him to leave???
America should be wise also. Give stability AND democracy a chance. DOnt force him out! He's already leaving. leave it at that. If you push him out immediately, you create the BEST environment for idiots to start taking positions of power.
All the messages and comments I am hearing from Egypt suggest that Copts generally are not participating in protests.
I really don't think we can generalize. You really need to do a survey.
Why not ask here if anyone HAS protested?
I know already 4 Coptic Christians that were part of the Jan 25 protesters.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/03/opinion/03atran.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&src=twrhp
Do you know anyone for sure who has been involved in that.
I thought you were talking about Copts being involved in the violence over the last days. You said that Copts were fighting Copts
Do you know anyone for sure who has been involved in that.
Well, let's put it this way:
The demonstrations started with loads of young people asking for change and Mubarak to resign. There were definately Coptic Christians involved in this.
Then Pro-Mubarak demonstrators came on the scene. This turned pear-shape and there was violence. You agree?
Well, I know Coptic Christians in Egypt from both Camps. I think the term "fighting" should be understood in a non violent sense... but if it did turn violent (physical) - then it was because of people's political affiliation, not religious affiliations
I'm not saying that they took part in the violence, but if you had Coptic Christians who were against Mubarak standing in Tahrir Square being attacked by people from the Pro-Mubarak group, then they may have defended themselves.
I know loads of Coptic Pro-Mubarak supporters. I know loads of anti-Mubarak Copts. Loads!!
It depends on your definition of violence also. There were clearly some trouble makers from the Pro-Mubarak group there.. but maybe some innocent muslims and copts with them got caught up in the violence also.
The point is this - right now, its no longer Christian Vs. Muslim.
It seems that the Muslim Brotherhood REALLY is unpopular as the NYTIMES report claims. It seems we all have a common enemy.
The thing is this fr Peter:
THE BEST WAY TO GET THE MB INTO POWER IS TO GO AND GET RID OF MUBARAK BEFORE HIS TERM ENDS. You will end up creating a power vacuum and the only group that is ready, organized and strong enough IS the MB. This is the BEST climate for them to find themselves in power: through rushing and fear mongering.
I'm SURE, in a free and fair election, if the people decided, you will see they do not have much support.
We are most of the time all busy protecting our families, our streets and our homes in collaboration with our fellow Egyptian brothers.
Seems the internet may be soon affected again.
GBU
I have not heard of Copts fighting Copts.
We are most of the time all busy protecting our families, our streets and our homes in collaboration with our fellow Egyptian brothers.
Seems the internet may be soon affected again.
GBU
OK forget the term "fighting" - maybe this is not accurate.
But would you agree that there are Copts who are Pro-Mubarak and some who are Anti-Mubarak?
Do you agree that were fights between both parties?
Do you agree that it was undiscriminating of religion?
Therefore, do you agree that a Coptic Christian could have unwittingly been screaming at another Coptic Christian from the opposite side?
I don't know why you are all assuming that Copts are staying at home for? Did you all do a survey?
All the Copts I know, from Shoubra, were in Tahrir screaming at Mubarak to leave.
GBU
Nobody is staying at home, men are in the streets to stop any attack. If there are few Copts who are still shouting anti Mubarak these most probably wrongly think that the whole problem would be solved if he resigns immediately, which as you know would not be so: a dangerous chaos will set in.
GBU
What makes you think there are a "few" copts who are still shouting anti-moubarak messages? How do you know?
GBU
May the Lord watch over all our brothers and sisters and fathers in Egypt.
There are almost none anymore but I assumed you spoke of a few you knew of. You must realize that the number of immediately anti Mubarak people now is a really very small percentage of the whole population. He said he will resign soon and so he will, everybody is wisely convinced of a safe transition period for power transfer. There are of course a few stubborn people left.
GBU
I'm reading news reports and media reports from different sources, and I have NO idea what the figures are. I really don't.
I can't even generalize or make extrapolations.
Personally, I don't think the youth are wise in what they are doing:
"We're not leaving until Mubarak leaves". This is completely immature. So, I disagree with them.
Yes, I think Egypt needs a change, but it deserves to grow democratically peacefully, IN SECURITY - NOT LIKE THIS!!!!
I still don't think anyone knows what percentages of Christians have been at the protests.
SODR is the best guide to tell us, but I don't know where he's been