"People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!"
Do you really believe that the issue here is the Coptic language or is it lack of interest in the Church altogether?
Do you think young people have the capability at such a young age to decide whether they are interested in the church?
Yes, I do think they have the capability if they have the proper role model. St Timothy know from his youth the scriptures, St Mary dedicated her life to serve the Lord from her youth, St Bishoy and St Shenouda practiced asceticism at a very young, the three saintly youth, Daniel, Abanoub, Youwannas, St Marina, St Demiana, and the list is endless.
Do you think a language barrier does not decrease interest in the church?
No I do not think it does. On the contrary it increases the interest in the Church.
I have to disagree. Praying in a Dead language doesnt increase interest in the Church, the Churches beliefs and practises do. The youth being bored of the church isnt to do with the language, but rather the Nature of Orthodox Church. I mean why would a young person go to an Orthodox church when the pentecostal "church" up the road has rock bands and mosh pits? When the Orthodox child realises the beauty of Orthodoxy, Language should not be a barrier.
The Church is like a hospital where one goes to get treated for illnesses. Its where one's heart is constantly purified and cleansed from hearing and absorbing the word of God; through assimilating and digesting His Word.
Are you saying that your local church stopped being a hospital because of Coptic usage?
Any Church stops being a hospital if God's Word is not being assimilated and absorbed in people's hearts. This isn't going to happen by spending 2 hours doing tasbeha in a language that no one understands, EVEN if the music is nice. Its the word of Christ that purifies and heals you, NOT THE MUSIC!
I have to disagree. Praying in a Dead language doesnt increase interest in the Church, the Churches beliefs and practises do. The youth being bored of the church isnt to do with the language, but rather the Nature of Orthodox Church. I mean why would a young person go to an Orthodox church when the pentecostal "church" up the road has rock bands and mosh pits? When the Orthodox child realises the beauty of Orthodoxy, Language should not be a barrier.
Instead on feeding on a myth. Give an example of where "The youth being bored of the church isnt to do with the language, but rather the Nature of Orthodox Church." is true.
I have to disagree. Praying in a Dead language doesnt increase interest in the Church, the Churches beliefs and practises do. The youth being bored of the church isnt to do with the language, but rather the Nature of Orthodox Church. I mean why would a young person go to an Orthodox church when the pentecostal "church" up the road has rock bands and mosh pits? When the Orthodox child realises the beauty of Orthodoxy, Language should not be a barrier.
Instead on feeding on a myth. Give an example of where "The youth being bored of the church isnt to do with the language, but rather the Nature of Orthodox Church." is true.
Forgive me for I believe you misinterpreted what i was saying. People in the Orthodox Church don't leave because its not in english, they leave because its a hard church. Why? Because orthodoxy is the truth, and will NOT change, regardless of how liberal the world is around it. I did not mean at all that its because of the Language or anything the church is doing wrong, but rather the Individual who does not wish to continue on the life of repentance and sacraments
I have to disagree. Praying in a Dead language doesnt increase interest in the Church, the Churches beliefs and practises do. The youth being bored of the church isnt to do with the language, but rather the Nature of Orthodox Church. I mean why would a young person go to an Orthodox church when the pentecostal "church" up the road has rock bands and mosh pits? When the Orthodox child realises the beauty of Orthodoxy, Language should not be a barrier.
Instead on feeding on a myth. Give an example of where "The youth being bored of the church isnt to do with the language, but rather the Nature of Orthodox Church." is true.
Forgive me for I believe you misinterpreted what i was saying. People in the Orthodox Church don't leave because its not in english, they leave because its a hard church. Why? Because orthodoxy is the truth, and will NOT change, regardless of how liberal the world is around it. I did not mean at all that its because of the Language or anything the church is doing wrong, but rather the Individual who does not wish to continue on the life of repentance and sacraments
Food for thought: Did any of the saints you listed above attend a church in which they could not understand the hymns?
You attribute their sainthood to the hymns? Basically what you are saying is that our path to the kingdom is hinged on the hymns.
Please, read their stories, imitate their lives and you will be ok.
Why is everything cause and effect with you?
Why are you putting words in my mouth?
What I was illustrating is that the sample you pointed to had different circumstances. Namely, they could understand what was going on in the liturgy. How much that affected their spiritual life I can't determine. But for you to trivialize its affect is wrong.
Food for thought: Did any of the saints you listed above attend a church in which they could not understand the hymns?
You attribute their sainthood to the hymns? Basically what you are saying is that our path to the kingdom is hinged on the hymns.
Please, read their stories, imitate their lives and you will be ok.
Why is everything cause and effect with you?
Why are you putting words in my mouth?
What I was illustrating is that the sample you pointed to had different circumstances. Namely, they could understand what was going on in the liturgy. How much that affected their spiritual life I can't determine. But for you to trivialize its affect is wrong.
No more arguments on this .. I believe we have exhausted the subject.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=12897.msg151874#msg151874 date=1329224064] ophadece, the point you miss is that most of the English people who used to worship with the Russians have now left because the use of Church Slavonic excludes them (and indeed many of the Russian who are recent immigrants). They ask, reasonably, why they are not able to worship in the language of this country?
Most Greek Orthodox do not go to Church except for the important Feasts and cannot easily understand what is being said when they do.
In Russia only 3% of members of the Orthodox Church attend the Church.
Why is it that the titles of our Patriarch do not mention the word Coptic? How was it possible in the past for ethnic Syrians to become Patriarchs?
We are Orthodox before we are Coptic, and many of us cannot be Coptic because we are English, or American or Canadian or Mexican. If the Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria is only for those who speak Coptic then it is not the same Patriarchate that it was in the times of our Fathers. The Church of Ethiopia was until recently part of the same Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, as was the Church of Sudan, and the Church of Nubia. But these all worshipped in their own languages while being part of the same Church.
It is a weakness of the Russian and Greek Churches in the UK and elsewhere when it worships in a foreign language, it is not a strength at all. The loss of many faithful members, and the absence of the majority, do not point to the use of a foreign language as the majority language of worship as being a success.
Those Russians who have come to live in England need to learn English and become English citizens from a Russian cultural background. If they wish to be only Russians then the English population will ask why they have come here.
Dear Father Peter, I am not sure if you noticed this before, but in all honesty I kept dodging answering this question, not because I don't have an answer, but because I said it before, but you keep asking me it. OK, here is my take on it (and this is absolutely personal, so it shouldn't really be taken to mean anything to anyone). I came to the UK, to seek a better life for myself, and be able to build my personality and set myself up for marriage without having to get help from my family. I did NOT come to the UK to shed off my skin and start anew in a church I don't know. I am still Coptic worshipping in a Coptic church. This is the beauty of England, a free country, as many others in the West, to allow for societies to express themselves within them, as small communities. As a servant, I may join Sunday school, and teach the youth Coptic hymns through English (but not English hymns). I am not prepared to vote for St. James' Liturgy in the Coptic prayers, nor am I going to force St. Basil's, St. Gregory's, or St. Cyril's on the British Orthodox church. The church I am used to attending is Coptic (and I don't really know the origin or the reason of why the name has changed, but I certainly didn't have any say in that), and I was attracted to this church (when I was in Egypt) through Coptic; so why do I have to give that up now? I am not sure that you call on me to be as fickle as such. Secondly, you as a British person, are another example in my life of how people adore their language. I am trying to take this tenacity as a model for me to be tenacious and hold on tooth and nail to the Coptic language in every small bit in the Coptic church (maybe one day as a language of communication again). That doesn't mean to compromise on my role, but to serve on that principle is my motto. Thirdly, I know you told us about your experience in Finland before, but let's say for argument's sake, that a British Orthodox Church is built in Finland, what language will be used? Why? Oujai qen `P[C
If a British Orthodox Church was established in Finland it would naturally use Finnish. Why would it use English? The Church should use the language of the place where it is - the generally speaking. I would not really think of establishing a church which used English anywhere other than in an English speaking country.
When I stayed in Senegal with English speaking missionaries we worshipped in French so that the Senegalese could participate.
How long does the original community remain the original community when it moves to another country. There are no longer Greek congregations in Italy for instance. But there were in the first century. There are no longer Latin speaking communities in Constantinople but there were in the 15th century.
That is a good point. I think for the Coptic church, specifically speaking, Egyptians will keep going abroad all the time, and will need to feel at home in their church in the West. Only my personal opinion though... Oujai qen `P[C
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12897.msg151961#msg151961 date=1329328561] OK. This is where I believe our church should have a dual role; not only missionary, but also serving the "original" community. Oujai qen `P[C
Why is the original community still speaking Arabic for!??? There comes a point in time where they will say to themselves: We are no longer immigrants, but we are now British. THey have to accept that. They cannot keep on and on and on and on praying the mass in Arabic or Coptic.
Coptic means Egyptian - right? Well, it would make sense that Coptic Christians in Egypt use Coptic. Why would it make sense that the Churches in the diaspora use Coptic also? What for??
Was this the spirit of Saint Paul? Did he try to integrate into the community he was in, or was he happy to separate himself apart.
I can tell u, as a fact, that this "clinging on" to our cultures and traditions of language - will only have a detrimental effect on the Church.
We are already in a good position, thanks to the Catholic Church, to welcome people into our Church. I really don't think someone coming from a Catholic background, or protestant background would appreciate a liturgy sung in a language that's not only foreign to them, but even foreign to others singing it.
As you know my wife is French. We passed by a group of Egyptians in Paris who were demonstrating about the military being in Power back in Egypt. They had a huge loud speaker and were talking in Arabic.
This more or less upset us both. Why on earth are they speaking in Arabic for? in loudspeakers? In the middle of Paris!??? How rude!! Did they want the French to understand and sympathize with their problem? Do they feel more Egyptian than French?
Basically, what it boils down to, is they have an apathy towards living in Europe and an apathy towards their host countries. They can be Egyptian even in France - but in a negative sense. They are not ring seen a positive light.
As Coptic Christians, as Orthodox Christians, what is uniting us? When I go to Church - what unites me with someone standing next to me in the Church? Is it Egypt? Is this what we have in common? Is it Egyptian Orthodoxy? Is it Arabic? I was hoping it would be the same faith; not culture.
I was hoping to share my faith with others , not make it an "only Egyptian Christian club".
The Churches in the Diaspora (including Ophadece) has to decide on this small but serious tradeoff:
Do you keep your Coptic and Arabic languages in a Church in the UK and enjoy a language you don't understand at the expense of understanding the language, and sharing your faith with others? This is the tradeoff.
Which do you prefer: Sharing your faith and evangelizing it? Or keeping Arabic and Coptic so tightly intertwined with your Church that one literally has to learn either language to even participate in the liturgy??
Both are noble reasons. Its a hard choice. But for me, I feel the need to bring in people into our Church and share with them the beauty of our Orthodox LIFE and Liturgy than to be stuck onto a beautiful language that sounds nice in the tasbeha, but really doesn't make sense to me.
I was singing A-Epchoise tasheree neman with my wife in the car once (Agios Athanatos Nai-nan) - and we came to a verse that we both knew by heart, and we sang it. I turned to her and said "That sounds great, but i have absolutely NO idea what it means".
DEAr Zoxsasi, I was never against integration by any means.. I think Indians in the UK struck the right balance.. but we as Egyptians? WE'll only keep debating this forever and a day OUjai
Hi Zoxsasi, After having the reaction that you didn't know what the song meant, did you try and find out? And how do the french feel about their own language compared to other languages?Are they proud?
The Eygptians were forced to take on arabic as a language, but used properly is very nice and even poetic. Why shouldn't they keep their old language as well? People around the world are learning different languages so we should try to be more tolerant.
[quote author=Joshuaa link=topic=12897.msg151978#msg151978 date=1329338637] Hi Zoxsasi, After having the reaction that you didn't know what the song meant, did you try and find out? And how do the french feel about their own language compared to other languages?Are they proud?
The Eygptians were forced to take on arabic as a language, but used properly is very nice and even poetic. Why shouldn't they keep their old language as well? People around the world are learning different languages so we should try to be more tolerant.
You chose your words very well: "Did you try to find out what the words meant (in the song)"?
Yes, I tried... and this is exactly where the problem lies: i have to dig hard to find the words to a song that I know off by heart, yet I don't know what it means. The books with the translations aren't available everywhere. Sometimes I may end up with a book that has the translation in Arabic, not in English, which means that i have to translate twice.
This cannot go on.
Yes, I love Coptic Hymns, but its pointless - TOTALLY pointless, if you sing them without understanding the meaning.
Do you not realize that your kids who will be raised in the Diaspora will have a problem if they go to a Coptic Church that is continually speaking Arabic and Coptic? Do you not feel that you yourselves who indulge in speaking Coptic and Arabic in an Orthodox Church in Europe are promoting racism? Why are you doing that?
The Coptic Church is well established in Egypt. Its not well known in Europe nor in the US/Australia. The best thing you can do is AT THE VERY LEAST, do sermons in English, and the liturgy in English (if you are in an English speaking country). You really ought to start thinking about the effects of your actions on the future generations of Coptic Christians living outside of Egypt.
There are HUNDREDS of Coptic Christians who are not from Egyptian parents, who are Coptic Orthodox now, and its not through marriage. Its through faith.
Unless the Church understands this problem and works hard to ensure that the local language of the country is respected within the Church's services, you are basically inviting Coptic Christians to go to the Protestant Churches.
I was wondering about this deeply.
Why would anyone who is Coptic Orthodox go to a Protestant Church for? Why???
Why would you go to McDonalds (a Protestant Church) after having been invited for a 5 course meal in a nice restaurant (Coptic Orthodox Church)?
There's only one answer:
-> Those that go were not full from the food they had in the Orthodox Church. They are still hungry and need something to eat. It means that there was probably food being given to them, but they had no BASIC tools like knives, forks, spoons (i.e. the proper language and understanding in prayer) to benefit them.
Now, its fine (for me at least) that Copts go to Protestant Churches. I don't have a problem with this. In fact, i think its quite charming that they go because it means that they aren't really going to Church as a habit, or for others, they are truly spiritually hungry.
The problem I have is that when they do go, they end up bringing back their McDonald's take away INTO a 5 star restaurant and eating it there. THIS BOTHERS ME.
You are WASTING good food with this arrogance and stubbornness you have with INSISTING on giving sermons in Arabic and doing everything else in Coptic and Arabic in the Church. You are literally destroying it.
Remember, I love Agios Athanatos Nai-nan. Its such a funky hymn. But to understand it, to make use of it, i have to "TRY" and dig around and get the translation.
I'm not sure if you know ANYTHING about memory and the human mind, but people tend to remember melodies far better than abstract equations, words or translations. I may not know the meaning of Agios Athanatos Nainan verses, but the melody is stuck in my head. Whenever I sing this hymn, i will NOT be singing or thinking of the words or their meaning, I will be just enjoying a melody.
The Church is at stake here.
Ophadece, your insistence on this subject is unfair. GO BACK TO EGYPT if you want to keep on praying in Arabic and Coptic in a Church that's in the UK!!!!. Its not fair. You hold a British passport!!! GET OUT OF ENGLAND!!!! You do not deserve to have this nationality.
Firstly, Who are you to say who can and cannot stay in the UK? People have the right to pray in whatever language they want to, and some people who are citizens in the West still wish to pray in Arabic or Coptic.
Secondly, Coptic people dont leave the church because of the failures of the Church, but rather because they have turned to heretical teachings. People have always left the Church, Nestorius, Apollinus, Arius. The list goes on and on. As for those who come back bring protestantism with them, what I have noticed is the returning orthodox are actually more strict against heresy then sometimes those who never left the Church.
Thirdly, I believe its up to the Local churches, and the Bishop of the Diocese as to which language is prayed in. If you make it totally english some people WILL NOT understand, as some of the older migrants cannot speak the new Language of the land. So either way somebody misses out.
Honestly If people are going to leave the Church over language, Let them. There are alot harder issues in Orthodoxy then what language one prays in. When I was a new convert If I had been insisted to pray in Arabic I would of left the Church and joined a different orthodox church. But being in an English Speaking Parish I have learnt that even if the Synod said no more english I would remain Oriental Orthodox. Why? because I reject Chalcedon, and will be buried Oriental Orthodox. those that leave the Church dont have that belief, or they wouldnt go to heresy.
Honestly If people are going to leave the Church over language, Let them.
I didn't say they are leaving it - i said that they are going ELSEWHERE and bringing back protestant teachings IN the Coptic Church.
They are going to the Protestant churches AFTER they attend the Orthodox Church. They are going to McDonald's AFTER they've attended a 5 course meal in a good restaurant.
THEY ARE STILL HUNGRY!!
It either means that our food in the COC is really bad or they had a problem eating and digesting it.
I believe, and after asking them, I know its because they ended up with ChopSticks when they could have eaten better with a knife and fork.
That is THIS generation. This is what's happening now.
I'm deeply concerned about the next generation. If you love your Church, if you love your Orthodox faith, make it accessible, evangelize it.
[quote author=zaki link=topic=12897.msg152028#msg152028 date=1329402585] it doesn't mater that language you use to pray as long that do pray more important that you
feel every word you saying to god and your sprite are lifted and your hart are lifted too that's
what i think its important. to the individual put when you talk about a church you have to remember
our church called Coptic church so one of the reasons we do pray in Coptic is to keep the tradition and
originality . god bless
You are talking NONSENSE!
"it doesn't matter what language you pray in"
Of course it does matter!! if you are not fluent in japanese, why on earth would you pray in it for??!!!!
You want to hold on to your culture, do this in Egypt!!! OK!? Maybe there is a small village somewhere where people still speak Coptic.
Coptic was the ancient language was Egypt. This is Europe. We don't speak it here.
I think the important question that we have to ask ourselves is: Why do we feel the need to be connected to the church in Egypt? How long can we keep this connection? Will this connection exist if Coptic is minimized, in the diaspora? We have to face reality -- most of us are Egyptian Americans, after some time we will just be Americans. . .
Firstly, Who are you to say who can and cannot stay in the UK? People have the right to pray in whatever language they want to, and some people who are citizens in the West still wish to pray in Arabic or Coptic.
I said he is not worthy to be British. Its my opinion, and its probably how anyone else from Britian would feel.
Secondly, Coptic people dont leave the church because of the failures of the Church, but rather because they have turned to heretical teachings. People have always left the Church, Nestorius, Apollinus, Arius. The list goes on and on. As for those who come back bring protestantism with them, what I have noticed is the returning orthodox are actually more strict against heresy then sometimes those who never left the Church.
NONSENSE!!! They leave because they cannot understand or absorb everything if its in a foreign language.
Thirdly, I believe its up to the Local churches, and the Bishop of the Diocese as to which language is prayed in. If you make it totally english some people WILL NOT understand, as some of the older migrants cannot speak the new Language of the land. So either way somebody misses out.
Honestly If people are going to leave the Church over language, Let them.
Wow.. that's just careless if not downright stupid!!
As I said, they are going to the protestant temples because they haven't had anything to eat/enjoy from the Orthodox!! I asked them, i know!
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg152046#msg152046 date=1329428644] I think the important question that we have to ask ourselves is: Why do we feel the need to be connected to the church in Egypt? How long can we keep this connection? Will this connection exist if Coptic is minimized, in the diaspora? We have to face reality -- most of us are Egyptian Americans, after some time we will just be Americans. . .
Matthew 12:25 NKJV But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
you lose connection to your roots, you create divisions and the entire Church crumbles.
[quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=12897.msg152053#msg152053 date=1329430381] [quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg152046#msg152046 date=1329428644] I think the important question that we have to ask ourselves is: Why do we feel the need to be connected to the church in Egypt? How long can we keep this connection? Will this connection exist if Coptic is minimized, in the diaspora? We have to face reality -- most of us are Egyptian Americans, after some time we will just be Americans. . .
Matthew 12:25 NKJV But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
you lose connection to your roots, you create divisions and the entire Church crumbles.
You think the division Christ was referring to could be of language?
Comments
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg151929#msg151929 date=1329278881]
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151927#msg151927 date=1329278661]
Andrew,
You started this thread with:
"People wonder why the youth know little about the church...it's because many of her teachings can be found in the hymns, but they can't understand them!!"
Do you really believe that the issue here is the Coptic language or is it lack of interest in the Church altogether?
Do you think young people have the capability at such a young age to decide whether they are interested in the church?
Yes, I do think they have the capability if they have the proper role model. St Timothy know from his youth the scriptures, St Mary dedicated her life to serve the Lord from her youth, St Bishoy and St Shenouda practiced asceticism at a very young, the three saintly youth, Daniel, Abanoub, Youwannas, St Marina, St Demiana, and the list is endless.
No I do not think it does. On the contrary it increases the interest in the Church.
I have to disagree. Praying in a Dead language doesnt increase interest in the Church, the Churches beliefs and practises do. The youth being bored of the church isnt to do with the language, but rather the Nature of Orthodox Church. I mean why would a young person go to an Orthodox church when the pentecostal "church" up the road has rock bands and mosh pits? When the Orthodox child realises the beauty of Orthodoxy, Language should not be a barrier.
Any Church stops being a hospital if God's Word is not being assimilated and absorbed in people's hearts. This isn't going to happen by spending 2 hours doing tasbeha in a language that no one understands, EVEN if the music is nice. Its the word of Christ that purifies and heals you, NOT THE MUSIC!
You attribute their sainthood to the hymns? Basically what you are saying is that our path to the kingdom is hinged on the hymns.
Please, read their stories, imitate their lives and you will be ok.
Forgive me for I believe you misinterpreted what i was saying. People in the Orthodox Church don't leave because its not in english, they leave because its a hard church. Why? Because orthodoxy is the truth, and will NOT change, regardless of how liberal the world is around it. I did not mean at all that its because of the Language or anything the church is doing wrong, but rather the Individual who does not wish to continue on the life of repentance and sacraments
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151948#msg151948 date=1329311632] Instead on feeding on a myth. Give an example of where "The youth being bored of the church isnt to do with the language, but rather the Nature of Orthodox Church." is true.
Forgive me for I believe you misinterpreted what i was saying. People in the Orthodox Church don't leave because its not in english, they leave because its a hard church. Why? Because orthodoxy is the truth, and will NOT change, regardless of how liberal the world is around it. I did not mean at all that its because of the Language or anything the church is doing wrong, but rather the Individual who does not wish to continue on the life of repentance and sacraments
I agree with you. Sorry for misunderstanding.
You attribute their sainthood to the hymns? Basically what you are saying is that our path to the kingdom is hinged on the hymns.
Please, read their stories, imitate their lives and you will be ok.
Why is everything cause and effect with you?
Why are you putting words in my mouth?
What I was illustrating is that the sample you pointed to had different circumstances. Namely, they could understand what was going on in the liturgy. How much that affected their spiritual life I can't determine. But for you to trivialize its affect is wrong.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12897.msg151946#msg151946 date=1329311492]
You attribute their sainthood to the hymns? Basically what you are saying is that our path to the kingdom is hinged on the hymns.
Please, read their stories, imitate their lives and you will be ok.
Why is everything cause and effect with you?
Why are you putting words in my mouth?
What I was illustrating is that the sample you pointed to had different circumstances. Namely, they could understand what was going on in the liturgy. How much that affected their spiritual life I can't determine. But for you to trivialize its affect is wrong.
No more arguments on this .. I believe we have exhausted the subject.
ophadece, the point you miss is that most of the English people who used to worship with the Russians have now left because the use of Church Slavonic excludes them (and indeed many of the Russian who are recent immigrants). They ask, reasonably, why they are not able to worship in the language of this country?
Most Greek Orthodox do not go to Church except for the important Feasts and cannot easily understand what is being said when they do.
In Russia only 3% of members of the Orthodox Church attend the Church.
Why is it that the titles of our Patriarch do not mention the word Coptic? How was it possible in the past for ethnic Syrians to become Patriarchs?
We are Orthodox before we are Coptic, and many of us cannot be Coptic because we are English, or American or Canadian or Mexican. If the Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria is only for those who speak Coptic then it is not the same Patriarchate that it was in the times of our Fathers. The Church of Ethiopia was until recently part of the same Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, as was the Church of Sudan, and the Church of Nubia. But these all worshipped in their own languages while being part of the same Church.
It is a weakness of the Russian and Greek Churches in the UK and elsewhere when it worships in a foreign language, it is not a strength at all. The loss of many faithful members, and the absence of the majority, do not point to the use of a foreign language as the majority language of worship as being a success.
Those Russians who have come to live in England need to learn English and become English citizens from a Russian cultural background. If they wish to be only Russians then the English population will ask why they have come here.
Dear Father Peter,
I am not sure if you noticed this before, but in all honesty I kept dodging answering this question, not because I don't have an answer, but because I said it before, but you keep asking me it. OK, here is my take on it (and this is absolutely personal, so it shouldn't really be taken to mean anything to anyone). I came to the UK, to seek a better life for myself, and be able to build my personality and set myself up for marriage without having to get help from my family. I did NOT come to the UK to shed off my skin and start anew in a church I don't know. I am still Coptic worshipping in a Coptic church. This is the beauty of England, a free country, as many others in the West, to allow for societies to express themselves within them, as small communities. As a servant, I may join Sunday school, and teach the youth Coptic hymns through English (but not English hymns). I am not prepared to vote for St. James' Liturgy in the Coptic prayers, nor am I going to force St. Basil's, St. Gregory's, or St. Cyril's on the British Orthodox church. The church I am used to attending is Coptic (and I don't really know the origin or the reason of why the name has changed, but I certainly didn't have any say in that), and I was attracted to this church (when I was in Egypt) through Coptic; so why do I have to give that up now? I am not sure that you call on me to be as fickle as such.
Secondly, you as a British person, are another example in my life of how people adore their language. I am trying to take this tenacity as a model for me to be tenacious and hold on tooth and nail to the Coptic language in every small bit in the Coptic church (maybe one day as a language of communication again). That doesn't mean to compromise on my role, but to serve on that principle is my motto.
Thirdly, I know you told us about your experience in Finland before, but let's say for argument's sake, that a British Orthodox Church is built in Finland, what language will be used? Why?
Oujai qen `P[C
When I stayed in Senegal with English speaking missionaries we worshipped in French so that the Senegalese could participate.
Oujai qen `P[C
Oujai qen `P[C
OK. This is where I believe our church should have a dual role; not only missionary, but also serving the "original" community.
Oujai qen `P[C
Why is the original community still speaking Arabic for!??? There comes a point in time where they will say to themselves: We are no longer immigrants, but we are now British. THey have to accept that. They cannot keep on and on and on and on praying the mass in Arabic or Coptic.
Coptic means Egyptian - right? Well, it would make sense that Coptic Christians in Egypt use Coptic. Why would it make sense that the Churches in the diaspora use Coptic also? What for??
Was this the spirit of Saint Paul? Did he try to integrate into the community he was in, or was he happy to separate himself apart.
I can tell u, as a fact, that this "clinging on" to our cultures and traditions of language - will only have a detrimental effect on the Church.
We are already in a good position, thanks to the Catholic Church, to welcome people into our Church. I really don't think someone coming from a Catholic background, or protestant background would appreciate a liturgy sung in a language that's not only foreign to them, but even foreign to others singing it.
As you know my wife is French. We passed by a group of Egyptians in Paris who were demonstrating about the military being in Power back in Egypt. They had a huge loud speaker and were talking in Arabic.
This more or less upset us both. Why on earth are they speaking in Arabic for? in loudspeakers? In the middle of Paris!??? How rude!! Did they want the French to understand and sympathize with their problem? Do they feel more Egyptian than French?
Basically, what it boils down to, is they have an apathy towards living in Europe and an apathy towards their host countries. They can be Egyptian even in France - but in a negative sense. They are not ring seen a positive light.
As Coptic Christians, as Orthodox Christians, what is uniting us? When I go to Church - what unites me with someone standing next to me in the Church? Is it Egypt? Is this what we have in common? Is it Egyptian Orthodoxy? Is it Arabic? I was hoping it would be the same faith; not culture.
I was hoping to share my faith with others , not make it an "only Egyptian Christian club".
The Churches in the Diaspora (including Ophadece) has to decide on this small but serious tradeoff:
Do you keep your Coptic and Arabic languages in a Church in the UK and enjoy a language you don't understand at the expense of understanding the language, and sharing your faith with others? This is the tradeoff.
Which do you prefer: Sharing your faith and evangelizing it? Or keeping Arabic and Coptic so tightly intertwined with your Church that one literally has to learn either language to even participate in the liturgy??
Both are noble reasons. Its a hard choice. But for me, I feel the need to bring in people into our Church and share with them the beauty of our Orthodox LIFE and Liturgy than to be stuck onto a beautiful language that sounds nice in the tasbeha, but really doesn't make sense to me.
I was singing A-Epchoise tasheree neman with my wife in the car once (Agios Athanatos Nai-nan) - and we came to a verse that we both knew by heart, and we sang it. I turned to her and said "That sounds great, but i have absolutely NO idea what it means".
You cannot keep on like this.
I was never against integration by any means.. I think Indians in the UK struck the right balance.. but we as Egyptians? WE'll only keep debating this forever and a day
OUjai
After having the reaction that you didn't know what the song meant, did you try and find out? And how do the french feel about their own language compared to other languages?Are they proud?
The Eygptians were forced to take on arabic as a language, but used properly is very nice and even poetic. Why shouldn't they keep their old language as well? People around the world are learning different languages so we should try to be more tolerant.
Oujai
Hi Zoxsasi,
After having the reaction that you didn't know what the song meant, did you try and find out? And how do the french feel about their own language compared to other languages?Are they proud?
The Eygptians were forced to take on arabic as a language, but used properly is very nice and even poetic. Why shouldn't they keep their old language as well? People around the world are learning different languages so we should try to be more tolerant.
You chose your words very well: "Did you try to find out what the words meant (in the song)"?
Yes, I tried... and this is exactly where the problem lies: i have to dig hard to find the words to a song that I know off by heart, yet I don't know what it means. The books with the translations aren't available everywhere. Sometimes I may end up with a book that has the translation in Arabic, not in English, which means that i have to translate twice.
This cannot go on.
Yes, I love Coptic Hymns, but its pointless - TOTALLY pointless, if you sing them without understanding the meaning.
Do you not realize that your kids who will be raised in the Diaspora will have a problem if they go to a Coptic Church that is continually speaking Arabic and Coptic? Do you not feel that you yourselves who indulge in speaking Coptic and Arabic in an Orthodox Church in Europe are promoting racism? Why are you doing that?
The Coptic Church is well established in Egypt. Its not well known in Europe nor in the US/Australia. The best thing you can do is AT THE VERY LEAST, do sermons in English, and the liturgy in English (if you are in an English speaking country). You really ought to start thinking about the effects of your actions on the future generations of Coptic Christians living outside of Egypt.
There are HUNDREDS of Coptic Christians who are not from Egyptian parents, who are Coptic Orthodox now, and its not through marriage. Its through faith.
Unless the Church understands this problem and works hard to ensure that the local language of the country is respected within the Church's services, you are basically inviting Coptic Christians to go to the Protestant Churches.
I was wondering about this deeply.
Why would anyone who is Coptic Orthodox go to a Protestant Church for? Why???
Why would you go to McDonalds (a Protestant Church) after having been invited for a 5 course meal in a nice restaurant (Coptic Orthodox Church)?
There's only one answer:
-> Those that go were not full from the food they had in the Orthodox Church. They are still hungry and need something to eat. It means that there was probably food being given to them, but they had no BASIC tools like knives, forks, spoons (i.e. the proper language and understanding in prayer) to benefit them.
Now, its fine (for me at least) that Copts go to Protestant Churches. I don't have a problem with this. In fact, i think its quite charming that they go because it means that they aren't really going to Church as a habit, or for others, they are truly spiritually hungry.
The problem I have is that when they do go, they end up bringing back their McDonald's take away INTO a 5 star restaurant and eating it there. THIS BOTHERS ME.
You are WASTING good food with this arrogance and stubbornness you have with INSISTING on giving sermons in Arabic and doing everything else in Coptic and Arabic in the Church. You are literally destroying it.
Remember, I love Agios Athanatos Nai-nan. Its such a funky hymn. But to understand it, to make use of it, i have to "TRY" and dig around and get the translation.
I'm not sure if you know ANYTHING about memory and the human mind, but people tend to remember melodies far better than abstract equations, words or translations. I may not know the meaning of Agios Athanatos Nainan verses, but the melody is stuck in my head. Whenever I sing this hymn, i will NOT be singing or thinking of the words or their meaning, I will be just enjoying a melody.
The Church is at stake here.
Ophadece, your insistence on this subject is unfair. GO BACK TO EGYPT if you want to keep on praying in Arabic and Coptic in a Church that's in the UK!!!!. Its not fair. You hold a British passport!!! GET OUT OF ENGLAND!!!! You do not deserve to have this nationality.
Firstly, Who are you to say who can and cannot stay in the UK? People have the right to pray in whatever language they want to, and some people who are citizens in the West still wish to pray in Arabic or Coptic.
Secondly, Coptic people dont leave the church because of the failures of the Church, but rather because they have turned to heretical teachings. People have always left the Church, Nestorius, Apollinus, Arius. The list goes on and on. As for those who come back bring protestantism with them, what I have noticed is the returning orthodox are actually more strict against heresy then sometimes those who never left the Church.
Thirdly, I believe its up to the Local churches, and the Bishop of the Diocese as to which language is prayed in. If you make it totally english some people WILL NOT understand, as some of the older migrants cannot speak the new Language of the land. So either way somebody misses out.
Honestly If people are going to leave the Church over language, Let them. There are alot harder issues in Orthodoxy then what language one prays in. When I was a new convert If I had been insisted to pray in Arabic I would of left the Church and joined a different orthodox church. But being in an English Speaking Parish I have learnt that even if the Synod said no more english I would remain Oriental Orthodox. Why? because I reject Chalcedon, and will be buried Oriental Orthodox. those that leave the Church dont have that belief, or they wouldnt go to heresy.
please pray for me, as i am a sinner.
Honestly If people are going to leave the Church over language, Let them.
I didn't say they are leaving it - i said that they are going ELSEWHERE and bringing back protestant teachings IN the Coptic Church.
They are going to the Protestant churches AFTER they attend the Orthodox Church.
They are going to McDonald's AFTER they've attended a 5 course meal in a good restaurant.
THEY ARE STILL HUNGRY!!
It either means that our food in the COC is really bad or
they had a problem eating and digesting it.
I believe, and after asking them, I know its because they ended up with ChopSticks when they could have eaten better with a knife and fork.
That is THIS generation. This is what's happening now.
I'm deeply concerned about the next generation. If you love your Church, if you love your Orthodox faith, make it accessible, evangelize it.
Oh my goodness!!!
feel every word you saying to god and your sprite are lifted and your hart are lifted too that's
what i think its important. to the individual put when you talk about a church you have to remember
our church called Coptic church so one of the reasons we do pray in Coptic is to keep the tradition and
originality . god bless
it doesn't mater that language you use to pray as long that do pray more important that you
feel every word you saying to god and your sprite are lifted and your hart are lifted too that's
what i think its important. to the individual put when you talk about a church you have to remember
our church called Coptic church so one of the reasons we do pray in Coptic is to keep the tradition and
originality . god bless
You are talking NONSENSE!
"it doesn't matter what language you pray in"
Of course it does matter!! if you are not fluent in japanese, why on earth would you pray in it for??!!!!
You want to hold on to your culture, do this in Egypt!!! OK!? Maybe there is a small village somewhere where people still speak Coptic.
Coptic was the ancient language was Egypt. This is Europe. We don't speak it here.
Thank you very much.. I'm impressed.. you sound so much like dzheremi... God bless you and pray for us too
Oujai
Zoxasi,
Firstly, Who are you to say who can and cannot stay in the UK? People have the right to pray in whatever language they want to, and some people who are citizens in the West still wish to pray in Arabic or Coptic.
I said he is not worthy to be British. Its my opinion, and its probably how anyone else from Britian would feel. NONSENSE!!! They leave because they cannot understand or absorb everything if its in a foreign language. Wow.. that's just careless if not downright stupid!!
As I said, they are going to the protestant temples because they haven't had anything to eat/enjoy from the Orthodox!! I asked them, i know!
I think the important question that we have to ask ourselves is: Why do we feel the need to be connected to the church in Egypt? How long can we keep this connection? Will this connection exist if Coptic is minimized, in the diaspora? We have to face reality -- most of us are Egyptian Americans, after some time we will just be Americans. . .
Matthew 12:25 NKJV
But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
you lose connection to your roots, you create divisions and the entire Church crumbles.
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12897.msg152046#msg152046 date=1329428644]
I think the important question that we have to ask ourselves is: Why do we feel the need to be connected to the church in Egypt? How long can we keep this connection? Will this connection exist if Coptic is minimized, in the diaspora? We have to face reality -- most of us are Egyptian Americans, after some time we will just be Americans. . .
Matthew 12:25 NKJV
But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
you lose connection to your roots, you create divisions and the entire Church crumbles.
You think the division Christ was referring to could be of language?