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Homosexuality and intolerance in the Coptic Church
Yes you may have seen this topic Sprout out before. It needs to be said that the coptic church DOESN'T know squat about Homosexuality has anyone read the book on Homosexuality and the Ordination of women? Better yet I'll just give you this link to a youtube post I found earlier today.
The church's only approach seems to be only condemnation.
The church's only approach seems to be only condemnation.
Comments
Tony
maybe someone can shed some light on the issue? Does anyone know why the Church is soo harsh when it comes to homosexuality? (*gasps*). The topic is considered highly taboo, no one wants to talk about and when it is addressed usually the words hell, burning, shame and un-acceptance etc. Not to mention the old story of Sodom and Gamora which by the way, i think is a bit outdated.
This is a forum isn't it? To stimulate discussion I'm assuming thats why your here, correct?
maybe someone can shed some light on the issue? Does anyone know why the Church is soo harsh when it comes to homosexuality? (*gasps*). The topic is considered highly taboo, no one wants to talk about and when it is addressed usually the words hell, burning, shame and un-acceptance etc. Not to mention the old story of Sodom and Gamora which by the way, i think is a bit outdated.
I wouldn't say it's considered taboo, I just don't see where the discussion lies to be honest. Homosexual acts are specifically condemned in the Bible; what is there to discuss? Those who have such inclinations are faced with a temptation - just as all of us are in different ways. The church NEVER turns away any such person who repents.
Matthew
Just a few questions I have on my mind i guess.
This post is not out of spite, I'm asking genuine questions, so please don't go all defensive on me. If this 'issue' bothers you then leave the topic...Frankly i know a few gay people my self and non of them, i know have 'chosen this path'. So then what do we do? ask them to change or else? Have you ever tried changing your sexuality?
Just a few questions I have on my mind i guess.
Whether or not they claim to be born with this or not is not the issue. God codemns the act. There is no excuses to give them the freedom to do it. Like Londoncopt and Amoussa01 said, the church does not condemn the person but the act. There is no difference from them then a heterosexual who commits adultery, its all sin and an abomination to the Lord. If either are willing to repent then as was said the church is accepting of them, if not and are not willing to and feel its ok and nothing wrong with it, then of course the church will not accept someone who will potentially cause others to stray.
This post is not out of spite, I'm asking genuine questions, so please don't go all defensive on me. If this 'issue' bothers you then leave the topic...Frankly i know a few gay people my self and non of them, i know have 'chosen this path'. So then what do we do? ask them to change or else? Have you ever tried changing your sexuality?
Just a few questions I have on my mind i guess.
Forgive me if I seemed a bit rude in replying, I'm really sorry but the whole subject of homosexuality in the church just really bores me to death because it's such an open and shut debate. Yes homosexual acts are wrong, and those who commit such sins without repenting will "burn in hell" if you like...but so will those who lie, steal, murder, commit adultery etc. Can you imagine murderers or rapists asking for their rights? I am personally friends with many gay people, and I treat them no differently to any other friends. It's our responsibility to guide them to repentance - we can't force them or nag them, but we can reflect Christ's love for them by being shining examples of Christ. This (I think) is the best way to begin preaching God's word. Remember that he who turns a sinner from the error of his ways will cover a multitude of sins (I forget the exact verse :P).
And regarding "changing sexuality", here's my personal opinion. Each of us is tempted in a unique way...some may be tempted by homosexual inclinations, but does that mean that they HAVE to act on these feelings and inclinations? Of course not! Just because we are tempted to do something, doesn't mean that we are forced to do it. You can find proof of this in the many monks in the world who choose to remain celibate. I can guarantee that many of them are tempted in similar ways, but they choose to fight this temptation out of their love for God.
God does not allow ANY of us to be tempted beyond our limits, this applies for homosexuals, thiefs, murderers etc. Even after falling into such sin, we are always welcomed back with open arms - that's the wonder of God's grace!
Matthew
You'll notice that the person in the video was not able to offer a single refutation of Pope Shenouda's words. And also, the Coptic Church is not intolerant to homosexuals, but it condemns homosexual acts and wishes that all those falling in this sin to repent. Remember that we love the sinner, but we hate the sin.
and indeed we do hate the sin. the pope didn't say anything against that. he condemned homosexuality not homosexuals. the guy himself read parts of the book.
when a person repent, than it's hard for them to deal with, but this step have to be taken to lose the sin.....
[quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94832#msg94832 date=1222811775]
This post is not out of spite, I'm asking genuine questions, so please don't go all defensive on me. If this 'issue' bothers you then leave the topic...Frankly i know a few gay people my self and non of them, i know have 'chosen this path'. So then what do we do? ask them to change or else? Have you ever tried changing your sexuality?
Just a few questions I have on my mind i guess.
your sexuality is what you are born with.....it's your nature. but you can change it....by becoming gay.
the claim to be born "gay" is fully, without question wrong/incorrect. who ever have told you that is an idiot who doesn't know the essence of this... let me explain. we all know that twins have the same DNA. being so, that means that if one is GAY, the other must be gay. that is not accurate. because a research was done and proved that 50% of twins that one of them is gay, the other is straight, not gay.
Here is a research done by a servant of my church couple of years ago. (GREAT SOURCE) (click on link).
Learn2dance, read this whole pdf.....if you still have question, we are all willing to answer. but keep it simple and straight forward becasue if this topic get's out hand as always, it will be locked by the admins....
Matthew
Thankyou for the link Mina, enjoyed reading it but I must admit that I'm a bit skeptical of some of those statistics in that article. I do agree with you on the genetic issue though, the so-called "Nature vs. Nurture" debate. As far as I am aware (and anyone feel free to correct me here) there is no conclusive evidence to support the theory that homosexuality is determined by one's genes. But I am aware that many people studying this issue favour a theory that one's genes may make you PREDISPOSED towards homosexuality (which if true, does not contradict anything said in this thread...just as some people may be more genetically predisposed towards violence than others).
Matthew
maybe what you are saying is supported by Sigmund Freud who was more interested into Psychosexual development. but even what he says about this "Psychosexual development" isn't fully accepted by all psycholinguists, being that his researched were all on specific group of people, more specific the children of rich families that funded his researches. i can be mistaken, but that's one of the few things that i actually still remember from "Intro to Psych"...;)
+mahraeel+
I'm not supporting any of these theories btw, I'm just simply putting them out there so we're aware of them and we can all make up our own minds. Maybe you could enlighten us Mina with your "intro to psych" expertise ;)
i disagreee with the fact that being born homo is true.
Haha I think you'll find that its very hard to disagree with a fact :P
I like the part about being born liking chocolate though. Thanks, you've cheered me up a lot :D
+mahraeel+
Second, NO ONE IS BORN HOMOSEXUAL I DONT CARE WHAT SCIENTIST SAID WHAT ABOUT ANYTHING NO ONE IS BORN GAY. You need to understand, you choose what you like, its like saying you are born loving chocolate, no you are not, you are introduced to it, and you enjoyed it. OR you were introduced to it, didnt like it, but now you like it. This is a choice you make because you find something appealing. you can try to argue with me as much as you want about being born gay, but it isnt true. I find my example to be one that makes perfect sense, and applies to sexuality perfectly.
Again NO ONE IS BORN HOMOSEXUAL. i just want to stress that point. (as if i hadn't enough)
I whole heartedly do not believe homosexuality and adultery and murder and theft are on par. At the very least a homosexual relationship consists of two CONSENTING people. The ACT of homosexuality in GODS EYES clearly is not any different to watching adulterers etc. Yes thank you got that.
Don't see why, again, homosexuality is so taboo, it maybe a choice, it may not be but surrounding the topic with death, and condemnation etc. clearly has STRONG negative social repercussions.
I hope you undersatnd where i am coming from, I'm rather tired and its difficult for me to articulate what i want to say at this point in time ;)
Mkay, so I skimed through all the posts, a few little tidbits, I never said people are BORN gay, certainly they can be born again (holds for laughter), Homosexuality is not a choice for most people that I know. Second of all, this is not about what the bible says on homosexuality, I think this youtube post, merely stresses the social repercussions of how the church comes to think of homosexuals in general, and obviously what the pope had written.
I whole heartedly do not believe homosexuality and adultery and murder and theft are on par. At the very least a homosexual relationship consists of two CONSENTING people. The ACT of homosexuality in GODS EYES clearly is not any different to watching adulterers etc. Yes thank you got that.
Don't see why, again, homosexuality is so taboo, it maybe a choice, it may not be but surrounding the topic with death, and condemnation etc. clearly has STRONG negative social repercussions.
I hope you undersatnd where i am coming from, I'm rather tired and its difficult for me to articulate what i want to say at this point in time ;)
first....you should finish reading the rest of the replys to your post here, http://www.coptichymns.net/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-8579-p-66638.html#66638
Now. A sin in GOD's eyes, is a sin. You already stressed it out a little but I AM declaring it that way for ALL sins, not only being murder ...etc.
NOw, tell me what did you want our pope to say???? did he say anything wrong?!! NO!!!
Is he making any of what's in the book up??! NO!!!
All he did is set the truth for all. One who is gay wouldn't of course accept as being offended....But maybe you can think of GOD being offended when HE sees the body that he created perfect being defiled as so.
That person in the video knows NOTHING. the least who could of done is make one little argument against what he read. BUT THERE WAS NOTHING. That proves how wrong is it, even from a homosexual who is trying to defend his sin. really.....maybe it has strong affects in churches, which what must happen for one to leave such a sin, but in reality, it's NOT. loook around you, the world is turning into "gay land" and what so called "gay rights/freedom".....
how can a sinner no he is sinning if all around him are sinning??!! Therefore the church have to be, sometimes, harsh on sinners for them to truly repent. God seeks the sinner, doesn't leave him until he's back in HIS bosom, or if no chance, fully died.
Learn2dance, who ever you are, do not go around in circles. with posts from both sites with great article and source against the sin, also some posts here on tasbeha.org that i doubt you have read, you must of learned something.......If not, then just leave us alone with what we know to be true.
I think the kind of thing you're looking for is exactly why Christianity is opposed to homosexuality. Especially because it doesn't (on the surface at least) appear to be harmful to anyone. It has been said MANY MANY times on this thread that its because the Bible says so, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you're asking for.
I've talked to my priest about it before and this is what he said:
The reasons why homosexuality is a sin DON'T MAKE SENSE UNLESS YOU'RE A CHRISTIAN. This is because it relies on a lot of spiritual principles which are only true if Christianity is true. The other reason the Bible gives is the fact that its is unnatural (Romans 27:1), which isn't hardcore evidence as such, and easily waved off by non-Christians. In light of that, when we are around homosexuals, the best we can do is befriend them, be Christians by example and then if you think they might possibly change, then good. If not, fine! It shouldn't bother us. I don't think every single gay person will go to hell, because many of them are good people! Thankfully, its not up to us to decide, so we should never assume that a person is going to hell.
Now the other point I want to make is that I agree with you in that homosexuality is treated very wrongly by people in Christian community. If you watch the YouTube video and listen to this dude as a human being, if you look past the obvious anger that he is expressing, he actually makes a very good point: Christians are driving homosexuals away rather than bringing them in. The man in this video is someone who HATES the living daylights out of us, because he's had some bad experiences with Christians. I mean put yourself in his shoes, I don't care if its true or not, but he clearly thinks his homosexuality is not a choice. So he has been living his whole life as a complete outcast, he's probably been condemned to hell by a hundred people and experienced a lot of hate. So when he hears a gospel teaching that homosexuality is wrong, and when he reads the Pope's book, he instantly assumes that they have the same message: i.e. Buzz off loser, you're going to hell. Which of course is absolutely untrue!!! Jesus NEVER meant that and the Pope doesn't either, but some Christians openly preach that and therein lies the problem.
I know that's probably no-one here (at least I hope not) but just in case I want to say. For Jesus's sake please: "Hate the sin but LOVE THE SINNER"
Sory 4 the long post...
God bless!!!
but in order for you to think nd believe homosexuality is wrong. You have to believe and have faith, Theres no scientific evidence. the proof is in your heart and how strong you love Jesus Christ. If God wanted you to be gay, then y would he create A man and Women. he could have created a man and a man. He purposely wanted man and women joined together in one flesh!
+mahraeel+
what about those who are born with the opposite sex body parts but are the opposite? I saw this on t.v.... guys being born in female bodies and girls being born with guy's body. I forgot the scientific name.
also, about about hermaphrodites? people being born both body parts? God created them didn't He? Why?
i think that maybe God created them like that because its a problem that you have to overcome. He wants you to cope with life. Not everyone is perfect. You have to learn how to live with it.
>>THis is probably wrong. i am sorry please forgive me. i tried my best.... Perhaps, someone has the right answer=)
+mahraeel+
But the following line cracked me up and am wondering what it may mean. Does it mean those sick people are addicted to their own version of chocolate? lolll..Thx for the laugh.
[quote author=mahraeel link=topic=7163.msg94889#msg94889 date=1222818035]
You are not born being gay!! It is like syaing your born liking chocolate. tHat is just an expression! First you have to try the chocolate and then say taht you like it. +mahraeel+
When you say 'sick people' i'm assuming your referring to homosexuals, I find that rather derogatory and inappropriate, Hazekial. What I'm trying to allude is what epchois-nai_nan mentioned in his post about the church 'driving away homosexuals'.
who ever is sinning is in fact "sick"......homosexuals are people in sin, therefore it's fitting to call them "sick" of that specific sin. is that hard......NO!!!
Even the word "sick" is nothing to fully describe it...the BOOK calls it "death"