[quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94955#msg94955 date=1222922607] I have a question, maybe someone here can clear this up for me, are homosexuals sinning even though they are not acting on their homosexuality?
how are they "homosexuals" if they are not practicing "homosexuality".....it would be a wrong statement to.
I think you are trying to get to the "celibate homosexuals" topic...which someone spoke about before here. and what i have said before, and am sure all can agree, it that also is a wrong statement. becasue by defining the word "celibate", you leave out all sexuality in practice. this is all speaking bodily wise.
now when you get to thought, that is all in your head and is not more then a lust....which is also a sin. but a thought brings ideas and ideas bring action and action is a FULL SIN. someone posted the verse before about a sin being born.
[quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94957#msg94957 date=1222924269] I don't think its a wrong statement at all, are you not a heterosexual if you are not a practicing one?
that is the nature of everyone. that is a definition of human nature. and speaking Christian-wise, no one speaks about anyone's sexuality until they full decide to get married and choose that way of life. You can't (*forgot to put this from before..) judge people's thought because you'll never fully know them.....you can only judge based on actions
That's utter crap, so unless everyone on this earth is married to a woman or a man, then their sexuality is undecided...I think what you fail to realise is the emotional aspect of homosexuality and heterosexuality there are reasons why a person is inclined one way or the other, or both other than pure unadulterated lust.
[quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94959#msg94959 date=1222925108] That's utter crap, so unless everyone on this earth is married to a woman or a man, then their sexuality is undecided...I think what you fail to realise is the emotional aspect of homosexuality and heterosexuality there are reasons why a person is inclined one way or the other, or both other than pure unadulterated lust.
i didn't say it's undecided...i meant it's unrevealed. and since heterosexuality is the default and true nature of humans, then that's what is all predict to be.
Will you were right on something....anything outside (sometimes inside) a true Christian marriage is in fact considered LUST. homo or not, it's lust. A true marriage being of the true nature, heterosexual, and is in fact blessed by HIS holy name in that sacrament.
[quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94959#msg94959 date=1222925108] I think what you fail to realise is the emotional aspect of homosexuality and heterosexuality there are reasons why a person is inclined one way or the other, or both other than pure unadulterated lust.
the GOD who gave us emotions also gave us feelings and HIS LAW to follow. I don't think I am failing to realize that, i am just seeing it the right way according to GOD.....someone correct me if I am wrong!!!!
Is it lust or love you ask? Ask yourself that, the same rules apply for heterosexuals as they do for homosexuals. Sexuality is unrevealed until someone decides to marry? I wouldn't say that's accurate at all. I know two homosexual people who married, trying to fit into the expectations of man and god, both ended in divorce.
So if heterosexuality is a default feeling then they should have felt right at home and lived happily ever after, correct?
[quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94963#msg94963 date=1222927324] Is it lust or love you ask? Ask yourself that, the same rules apply for heterosexuals as they do for homosexuals. ... So if heterosexuality is a default feeling then they should have felt right at home and lived happily ever after, correct?
i knew you going to get into this...but i guess i skipped something.....not thinking you'll get into it.
God gave us emotions and feelings, but He doesn't control us by them. He also gave us freewill to use all of those gifts He gave us. GOD can't force you to love Him, but he expects you to do so because it is the right way and He deserves you.
saying that, the rules for "heterosexuals and homosexuals" are either accepted by what have God commanded, which is clear in the Holy Bible and what we been talking about in this post, and i am sure on the coptichymns.net post you put there to. OR what they choose to feel by themselves, not following what God have set for them.
I know two homosexual people who married, trying to fit into the expectations of man and god, both ended in divorce.
if you written this right (referring to homosexuals getting married), then you are just confirming my point. you can't fit into GOD's realm unless you fully follow HIM. you just told me that I'll take the marriage part of God's commandment (being a sacred sacrament) but not the heterosexual part which God has set.......what in the world are you trying to do?? why would you always have to define things that are clear and simple to understand to fit your own desires??!!
Sexuality is unrevealed until someone decides to marry? I wouldn't say that's accurate at all.
again......you don't understand what i am saying. in the Orthodox Judaism, the "Sex" topic is NEVER spoken about..period. knowing that the default is so, and that's what all expect others to abide with. this is what i mean to. but in our world today, people need to know the wrong from right since it's their choice to choose their feelings rightly towards God and His kingdom.
please don't take my words like "you" or "your" to be directed to YOU. it's just my way of speaking referring to ALL...not one particular person.
I'm obviously having trouble being clear so let me try to respond as best i can.....
I'm not sure what your saying under the first quote. I was responding to your question is it 'lust or love? in homosexual relationships, I'm assuming your talking about'. So in terms of how people interact with each other and how relationships begin, they work exactly the same. A person can be emotional and/or physically attracted to either a woman or another man.
Your second point- Well these people who married, one of them was on his way to becoming a priest the other was rather religious. So what does follow God really mean? I'm not sure if that's a useful instruction. Perhaps if the church stopped telling these people that they will merely go to hell if they don't change their ways and accommodate to their needs... and maybe if the church had a homosexual speaker, people would be more socially aware...
your third point Yes your right i didn't know you were making a Judaic reference.
[quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94955#msg94955 date=1222922607] I have a question, maybe someone here can clear this up for me, are homosexuals sinning even though they are not acting on their homosexuality?
The problem here is that we cannot answer that question! Let's face it, the Bible is very sketchy on homosexuality. Yes, it says its wrong and that it goes against God but that is all it says. So ultimately, we cannot know the answer to that question, there is not enough evidence for us to make a conclusion. That is why we need to remove the "taboo" that Learn2Dance is talking about. We think that all homosexuals are sinners and therefore should be reprimanded and punished for their sins but that is hypocrisy. Yes, homosexuals are sinners BUT SO ARE WE!!! I am sure that there are hundreds of homosexuals who are much better people than I am. Just because this particular sin manifests itself differently does not indicate that is worse or more damaging especailly when there is no definitve Biblical evidence to support that idea. Its a form of adultery period. But the people who have grown up thinking they're born gay, I think God will have an incredible amount of mercy on! They have not consciously done wrong and if they are good people, why should it matter? SO my answer to the question:
I put it to you all (theoretically, I don't know God's mind), that a homosexual person with a sincere commitment to doing good is more worthy in God's eyes than a Christian hetersoxual hypocrite.
In John chapter 8 we see how Christ dealt with someone who was an outcast and sinner in the eyes of the community at the time. Instead of condemning her He provided for her the 4 basic needs that we all have: feeling loved, secure, accepted and forgiveness. He went down on his knees and showed her He cared and wouldn't condemn her. Imagine what that would have looked like! Everybody was probably thinking in their self-righteousness: she was caught sinning, Christ should condemn her to hell just like the law of Moses says. Instead he says: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. In other words, we are not better than any other sinner (even though a lot of people DO think so). That doesn't mean we don't condemn sin, however I think when it comes to this specific subject of sexual sins (and more specifially homosexuality), we as a community tend to be very judging. Instead of showing love and forgiveness, we just scream how wrong and bad it is: that's not how Christ handled this. He instead offered his friendship and trust and forgiveness, and in the end he says: "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." What often happens is the opposite: we demand that people "sin no more" in order for us to accept them...i wonder what your thoughts are!
What often happens is the opposite: we demand that people "sin no more" in order for us to accept them...i wonder what your thoughts are!
You make a very good point here, I guess you could file this under "he who is forgiven much, loves much". But is this ALWAYS the case? I mean, if we're not made to feel at least a little bad for our sins then would we not just keep returning to them? I know for a fact that if my father of confession didn't sometimes make me feel this way about some of my sins, I would just keep doing them subconciously knowing that I would be forgiven...which is VERY wrong!
Or maybe that's just me? As for the whole "celibate homosexuals" topic...my personal opinion is that there's some good to this. If a person is convinced that they were born homosexual (whether you agree with this or not) but chooses to ignore those inclinations out of their love for God, then how is that different to a heterosexual person who ignores their inclincations of lust for God as well? I may be misunderstanding a more complicated issue, but this is just my understanding.
I guess the only thing that I can be totally sure about is that anyone, sinners or not, should be welcomed with open arms...because we're all sinners at the end of the day.
[quote author=LondonCopt link=topic=7163.msg94969#msg94969 date=1222948773] But is this ALWAYS the case? I mean, if we're not made to feel at least a little bad for our sins then would we not just keep returning to them?
This is true but that is God's responsibility and His alone. For this to be done properly requires for the 'guilt applier' to be completely objective, something impossible for a human. When people take things like this into their own hands, it can always go wrong, and horribly so. While in some cases it might work, if the person is pure in intention, unforunately there will always be someone who twists that ideal into something ugly. People suck, that's why responsibilities like this belong with God. I think we should only ever show love to a person. If more people did that, there would be less poor people like the dude in the video. Judge not that you be not judged...
[quote author=LondonCopt link=topic=7163.msg94969#msg94969 date=1222948773] I guess the only thing that I can be totally sure about is that anyone, sinners or not, should be welcomed with open arms...because we're all sinners at the end of the day.
Here here!
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=7163.msg94968#msg94968 date=1222939504] Instead of showing love and forgiveness, we just scream how wrong and bad it is: that's not how Christ handled this. He instead offered his friendship and trust and forgiveness, and in the end he says: "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
I was heavily involved in the translation of that book. If you'd bother reading it carefully, you'd see that H.Holiness Pope Shenouda was talking about homosexuals asking 'rights' in the Church (i.e. Ordination of Gay Priests/Bishops) - His logic being that it is a sin to be practicing homosexuality whilst the Bible clearly explains that this act is an abomination to God. In no way does the book condone discrimination or intolerance against Homosexuals. FAR FROM IT. How ?? His Holiness said that they are "WELCOME TO COME TO THE CHURCH TO REPENT". When you come to repent, that puts you alongside EVERYONE ELSE STANDING IN THE CHURCH. You then become equal with us all when you take the position of repentance.
You are as welcome to come to the Church to repent and seek healing as much as someone who is an adulterer who wishes to stop and turn from adultary can come to the church to seek repentance also. Both acts are sinful.
Can I say that God created me as a man and therefore I love women too much to the extent that I cannot stop having sexual relations with women when I'm still married? Can I accuse God then of creating me in a way that doesn't make sense to my desires? i.e. That its my natural tendence to be sexually attracted to more than 1 woman, so my wife and the Church should accept that I should have sexual relations with other women outside marriage??? And then to commit adultary whilst I'm married and have the audacity to justify it because "God made me that way"?
God made man incorrupt -and without sin. Sin entered humanity by the envy of satan. We all have to return, through God's grace, back to the original state we were created in. Everyone has problems. EVERYONE. Without exception.
If there are parts in that book you did not understand or feel are unfair, PM me and we'll discuss it offline, but we are not in the business of re-reprinting or changing "right to wrong" and "wrong to right" to appease people's desires.
When Christ said "the road is hard" this is what He was talking about. We are all attached to our personal desires, and have to overcome this in order to attain, and to be worthy of, the price of salvation that was offered for us.
Again, I cannot stress this enough - if you have an issue with this book, PM me - OK? I'll put you in touch with the translator and you can take it up with her as I honestly feel you've misunderstood this entire book.
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=7163.msg94967#msg94967 date=1222932956] [quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94955#msg94955 date=1222922607] I have a question, maybe someone here can clear this up for me, are homosexuals sinning even though they are not acting on their homosexuality?
The problem here is that we cannot answer that question! Let's face it, the Bible is very sketchy on homosexuality. Yes, it says its wrong and that it goes against God but that is all it says. So ultimately, we cannot know the answer to that question, there is not enough evidence for us to make a conclusion. That is why we need to remove the "taboo" that Learn2Dance is talking about. We think that all homosexuals are sinners and therefore should be reprimanded and punished for their sins but that is hypocrisy. Yes, homosexuals are sinners BUT SO ARE WE!!! I am sure that there are hundreds of homosexuals who are much better people than I am. Just because this particular sin manifests itself differently does not indicate that is worse or more damaging especailly when there is no definitve Biblical evidence to support that idea. Its a form of adultery period. But the people who have grown up thinking they're born gay, I think God will have an incredible amount of mercy on! They have not consciously done wrong and if they are good people, why should it matter? SO my answer to the question:
I put it to you all (theoretically, I don't know God's mind), that a homosexual person with a sincere commitment to doing good is more worthy in God's eyes than a Christian hetersoxual hypocrite.
Epchoise-NaiNan,
I know many gay people, and they were good people. Inherently really wonderful people. This is not a popularity contest. The Coptic Church is structured around repentance. Whether people are bad or good, its not for us to judge. Homosexual practices are sinful. Period.
H.H Holiness in the book on Homosexuality clearly explains what repentance is for someone gay and what it involves.
I put it to you also Epchoise the Words of Our Lord who said "Although you did miracles in my Name, I do not know you, You lawless" Lawless here means "someone who breaks His Commandments".
Actually, I knew a priest who had a bad temper, but he was very honest. And he struggled so much to overcome his weaknesses. So? Are you just looking for someone cool and fun to hold in high esteem? Are you God?
We are all equal in God's eyes, but we must never change between wrong and right.
I know so many homosexuals that were healed from their homosexual desires. Its a process, and we should encourage repentance. I know so many people that were healed of "addictive" sins from pornography, stealing, gambling, sexual immorality, fornication, etc that were healed through repentance.
I think it far from wise to overshadow the acceptance of a sinner to Christ through repentance with the acceptance of a sinner to Christ because they are just "nice" people.
[quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94966#msg94966 date=1222931699] I don't go to church.
If you do not go to church, why does it bother you what the Coptic church thinks?.Dont you think that should be our concern,the concern of those who adore their churches? In other words, you can not give a damn about a body to which you do not belong! I conclude, the topic of your question has no relevance to you.
Mahraeel, Thx, You put a smile on my face the to other day:-)
[quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=7163.msg94985#msg94985 date=1222982511] [quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94966#msg94966 date=1222931699] I don't go to church.
If you do not go to church, why does it bother you what the Coptic church thinks?.Dont you think that should be our concern,the concern of those who adore their churches? In other words, you can not give a damn about a body to which you do not belong! I conclude, the topic of your question has no relevance to you.
i wanted to say that but i didn't want to be too extreme.
Learn2dance, you still haven't told us where are you from....or which church you used to go to?
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7163.msg94986#msg94986 date=1222983038] [quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=7163.msg94985#msg94985 date=1222982511] [quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94966#msg94966 date=1222931699] I don't go to church.
If you do not go to church, why does it bother you what the Coptic church thinks?.Dont you think that should be our concern,the concern of those who adore their churches? In other words, you can not give a damn about a body to which you do not belong! I conclude, the topic of your question has no relevance to you.
i wanted to say that but i didn't want to be too extreme.
Learn2dance, you still haven't told us where are you from....or which church you used to go to?
That line 'I don't go to church' makes all his arguments irrelavant and pointless. It gave him away.That is what a friend of mine calls 'reading between the lines'. It is a one liner but tells volumes about the amount of contempt the person has for the body of Christ. S/he has no business to question something that S/he has no clue of,except for dancing purposes. Bear in mind, when S/he says the Coptic church is 'intolerant to gays';who in my view are the abomination of nature, s/he is accusing the true church of christ of 'arrogance and pride'.Now,I do not know about you,but that does not sit well with me, becasue it simply is a blatant LIE. Imagine , I do not know you, but I have the audacity to complain, question or label you all kinds of derogatory terms that comes to mind,because you do not accept my tendencies. No way,Jose!
Whether this person goes to church or not is irrelevant I think. He/she came here to ask a question and we are simply clarifying our church's position. Labelling them as "pointless" isn't the right way to bring this person to our faith...we should be preaching to ALL nations, whether they are part of our church or not. Let's show a little more love?
I seriously believe it is our duty, as servents of the Church at least, to welcome people like "learn2dance" to the Church, rather than criticise them.
The one who said homosexuality is wrong, also said judging is wrong, so we are not better off if we judge.
The person, in a state of sin, suffers whilst in that state. If, as a Church, we tell homosexuals that they should come and repent in Church, then what chance do we give them of repenting if we have this "Accusatory" spirit amongst us? What will they find if they come to Church? Their homosexual friends have accepted them - but we should also learn to accept them in the Church and guide them to repentance. At this rate, why bother being part of the body of Christ, when the other members don't really want you?
I co-translated & published that book on Homosexuality. I wouldn't have done it if it meant that the Church rejects in anyway a sinner. And this attitude is doing just that. I have no part in it.
Learn2dance, there is no doubt that repentance is an invitation to life. For everyone. You must see the Church community as equal to you. Your particular sin is one which we may not share in, but we all have sins that are equally as bad. We just cannot justify our weaknesses and illnesses because our human natures and desires make us sinful. The struggle to overcome sin is a crown initself and you shall be rewarded with that. In fact, to struggle against this sin is very good in God's eyes. No one is really "worthy" to enter Heaven, but those who are considered worthy are those that have struggled the most, and not taken for granted the price of their Salvation that Our Lord paid on the cross. By not struggling against our carnal and lustful desires, we are careless in how we treat God's salvation for us.
God will never ask you why you sinned being a homosexual... He will ask you why you didn't struggle against it and repent. That applies for everyone.
What is the point of this topic? It basically sounds like your trying to make homosexuality a non-sinful act. Well guess what, our church will never classify homosexuality as okay. Why is it wrong? Because God said so, thats why. Christ says in the Gospel of Saint Matthew Chapter 11 Verse 24:
"But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgement than for you".
This verse can be understood in a few different ways. When Christ says more tolerable for Sodom than for you, "you", are the people who will not believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Well, look at this verse from a different angle. Why out of all sinful stories in the Old Testament, did Christ chose this one to compare it too? When you say this is better than this, the lesser thing you are comparing it too is the one at the top of the list. This means that the punishment for Sodom will be SEVERE. It is true that lying, adultery, and murder are all deadly sins, but because of this verse, we can clearly see that homosexuality is worse than all these because Christ used it in his example. Right now, you can steal, lie, murder, commit adultery and sin all you want without punishment, but there will be a day when you will pay for it, BIG TIME!
[quote author=LondonCopt link=topic=7163.msg94988#msg94988 date=1222985239] Whether this person goes to church or not is irrelevant I think. He/she came here to ask a question and we are simply clarifying our church's position. Labelling them as "pointless" isn't the right way to bring this person to our faith...we should be preaching to ALL nations, whether they are part of our church or not. Let's show a little more love?
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg94990#msg94990 date=1222985520] What is the point of this topic? It basically sounds like your trying to make homosexuality a non-sinful act. Well guess what, our church will never classify homosexuality as okay. Why is it wrong? Because God said so, thats why. Christ says in the Gospel of Saint Matthew Chapter 11 Verse 24:
"But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgement than for you".
This verse can be understood in a few different ways. When Christ says more tolerable for Sodom than for you, "you", are the people who will not believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Well, look at this verse from a different angle. Why out of all sinful stories in the Old Testament, did Christ chose this one to compare it too? When you say this is better than this, the lesser thing you are comparing it too is the one at the top of the list. This means that the punishment for Sodom will be SEVERE. It is true that lying, adultery, and murder are all deadly sins, but because of this verse, we can clearly see that homosexuality is worse than all these because Christ used it in his example. Right now, you can steal, lie, murder, commit adultery and sin all you want without punishment, but there will be a day when you will pay for it, BIG TIME!
PK
I am going to have to disagree to an extent. All sins are equal. All sins yield separation from God, therefore, they are all seen equally - one does not reign over the other. We say that pride is actually the sin of sins, as it is that which opened the door for all sins to enter into the world (Lucifer's pride is what caused his downfall).
With that clear, there are numerous references in the Bible that say that homosexuality is wrong, as you mentioned. It is of course a sin and as such, the Coptic Church treats it like any other - people that sin in this manner need to work on it, just as people that lust, people that cheat, people with foul tongues, and so on.
There is as much tolerance for homosexuals as there is for other offenders - namely, complete tolerance! Tolerance, meaning that everyone is accepted to the Church so long as the pledge and vow to work hard at overcoming the struggle. Just as everyone else vows to overcome their own unique struggles. This issue is no different.
But PopeKyrillos, you are absolutely right - there is no chance of course that our Church would consider making homosexuality a 'norm'.
It isn't even in the realm of possibility. You just have to work at it, or stay celibate and control your lust.
I think looking at a sin through our eyes, is different than looking at a sin from God's eyes. One of the only sins (if not the only one) that we can say is at the top of the list is homosexuality and I stated in my earlier post the reason for that. We cannot say lying is worse than adultery because all Christ said was that they were bad as all sins are. But with homosexuality, indirectly, Christ told us that it was basically one of the worst sins. I don't disagree with the fact that all sin is seperation from God, but the severity of the punishment for homosexuality, is clearly very harsh as Christ explained himself. It is probably more harsh than the punishment for most other sins because Christ used Sodom in his example for that verse. For example, Why didn't he use the example of Cain and Abel? That's why I reasoned that murder is more tolerable than homosexuality. Don't get me wrong though, homosexuality, and murder or any other sin can be 100% forgiven through repentance and confession. On earth, no sin is greater than another, but after death, the punishment of sins like homosexuality will be greater than the punishment for other sins.
Sins don't differ in degree of how but bad they are, but rather how quickly they can destroy a soul, and take them away from God. The wage of sin is death, regardless of the sin, the true difference in the toll they take on the spiritual life of a person.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg94994#msg94994 date=1222989310] I think looking at a sin through our eyes, is different than looking at a sin from God's eyes. One of the only sins (if not the only one) that we can say is at the top of the list is homosexuality and I stated in my earlier post the reason for that. We cannot say lying is worse than adultery because all Christ said was that they were bad as all sins are. But with homosexuality, indirectly, Christ told us that it was basically one of the worst sins. I don't disagree with the fact that all sin is seperation from God, but the severity of the punishment for homosexuality, is clearly very harsh as Christ explained himself. It is probably more harsh than the punishment for most other sins because Christ used Sodom in his example for that verse. For example, Why didn't he use the example of Cain and Abel? That's why I reasoned that murder is more tolerable than homosexuality. Don't get me wrong though, homosexuality, and murder or any other sin can be 100% forgiven through repentance and confession. On earth, no sin is greater than another, but after death, the punishment of sins like homosexuality will be greater than the punishment for other sins.
PK
PK, i think you are getting confused......
Look, it's that simple to understand: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Comments
I have a question, maybe someone here can clear this up for me, are homosexuals sinning even though they are not acting on their homosexuality?
how are they "homosexuals" if they are not practicing "homosexuality".....it would be a wrong statement to.
I think you are trying to get to the "celibate homosexuals" topic...which someone spoke about before here. and what i have said before, and am sure all can agree, it that also is a wrong statement. becasue by defining the word "celibate", you leave out all sexuality in practice. this is all speaking bodily wise.
now when you get to thought, that is all in your head and is not more then a lust....which is also a sin. but a thought brings ideas and ideas bring action and action is a FULL SIN. someone posted the verse before about a sin being born.
I don't think its a wrong statement at all, are you not a heterosexual if you are not a practicing one?
that is the nature of everyone. that is a definition of human nature. and speaking Christian-wise, no one speaks about anyone's sexuality until they full decide to get married and choose that way of life. You can't (*forgot to put this from before..) judge people's thought because you'll never fully know them.....you can only judge based on actions
That's utter crap, so unless everyone on this earth is married to a woman or a man, then their sexuality is undecided...I think what you fail to realise is the emotional aspect of homosexuality and heterosexuality there are reasons why a person is inclined one way or the other, or both other than pure unadulterated lust.
i didn't say it's undecided...i meant it's unrevealed. and since heterosexuality is the default and true nature of humans, then that's what is all predict to be.
Will you were right on something....anything outside (sometimes inside) a true Christian marriage is in fact considered LUST. homo or not, it's lust.
A true marriage being of the true nature, heterosexual, and is in fact blessed by HIS holy name in that sacrament.
I think what you fail to realise is the emotional aspect of homosexuality and heterosexuality there are reasons why a person is inclined one way or the other, or both other than pure unadulterated lust.
the GOD who gave us emotions also gave us feelings and HIS LAW to follow. I don't think I am failing to realize that, i am just seeing it the right way according to GOD.....someone correct me if I am wrong!!!!
emotions == feelings
LUST is a feeling as well as LOVE....but they are totally 2 different things.
that's the question that i ask when i argue with a homosexual. they never answer it!!!!
is it "love" or "lust"??
Sexuality is unrevealed until someone decides to marry? I wouldn't say that's accurate at all. I know two homosexual people who married, trying to fit into the expectations of man and god, both ended in divorce.
So if heterosexuality is a default feeling then they should have felt right at home and lived happily ever after, correct?
Is it lust or love you ask? Ask yourself that, the same rules apply for heterosexuals as they do for homosexuals.
... So if heterosexuality is a default feeling then they should have felt right at home and lived happily ever after, correct?
i knew you going to get into this...but i guess i skipped something.....not thinking you'll get into it.
God gave us emotions and feelings, but He doesn't control us by them. He also gave us freewill to use all of those gifts He gave us. GOD can't force you to love Him, but he expects you to do so because it is the right way and He deserves you.
saying that, the rules for "heterosexuals and homosexuals" are either accepted by what have God commanded, which is clear in the Holy Bible and what we been talking about in this post, and i am sure on the coptichymns.net post you put there to. OR what they choose to feel by themselves, not following what God have set for them. if you written this right (referring to homosexuals getting married), then you are just confirming my point. you can't fit into GOD's realm unless you fully follow HIM. you just told me that I'll take the marriage part of God's commandment (being a sacred sacrament) but not the heterosexual part which God has set.......what in the world are you trying to do?? why would you always have to define things that are clear and simple to understand to fit your own desires??!! again......you don't understand what i am saying. in the Orthodox Judaism, the "Sex" topic is NEVER spoken about..period. knowing that the default is so, and that's what all expect others to abide with. this is what i mean to. but in our world today, people need to know the wrong from right since it's their choice to choose their feelings rightly towards God and His kingdom.
please don't take my words like "you" or "your" to be directed to YOU. it's just my way of speaking referring to ALL...not one particular person.
I'm obviously having trouble being clear so let me try to respond as best i can.....
I'm not sure what your saying under the first quote. I was responding to your question is it 'lust or love? in homosexual relationships, I'm assuming your talking about'. So in terms of how people interact with each other and how relationships begin, they work exactly the same. A person can be emotional and/or physically attracted to either a woman or another man.
Your second point-
Well these people who married, one of them was on his way to becoming a priest the other was rather religious. So what does follow God really mean? I'm not sure if that's a useful instruction. Perhaps if the church stopped telling these people that they will merely go to hell if they don't change their ways and accommodate to their needs... and maybe if the church had a homosexual speaker, people would be more socially aware...
your third point
Yes your right i didn't know you were making a Judaic reference.
I don't go to church.
I have a question, maybe someone here can clear this up for me, are homosexuals sinning even though they are not acting on their homosexuality?
The problem here is that we cannot answer that question! Let's face it, the Bible is very sketchy on homosexuality. Yes, it says its wrong and that it goes against God but that is all it says. So ultimately, we cannot know the answer to that question, there is not enough evidence for us to make a conclusion. That is why we need to remove the "taboo" that Learn2Dance is talking about. We think that all homosexuals are sinners and therefore should be reprimanded and punished for their sins but that is hypocrisy. Yes, homosexuals are sinners BUT SO ARE WE!!! I am sure that there are hundreds of homosexuals who are much better people than I am. Just because this particular sin manifests itself differently does not indicate that is worse or more damaging especailly when there is no definitve Biblical evidence to support that idea. Its a form of adultery period. But the people who have grown up thinking they're born gay, I think God will have an incredible amount of mercy on! They have not consciously done wrong and if they are good people, why should it matter?
SO my answer to the question:
I put it to you all (theoretically, I don't know God's mind), that a homosexual person with a sincere commitment to doing good is more worthy in God's eyes than a Christian hetersoxual hypocrite.
He went down on his knees and showed her He cared and wouldn't condemn her. Imagine what that would have looked like! Everybody was probably thinking in their self-righteousness: she was caught sinning, Christ should condemn her to hell just like the law of Moses says.
Instead he says: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. In other words, we are not better than any other sinner (even though a lot of people DO think so). That doesn't mean we don't condemn sin, however I think when it comes to this specific subject of sexual sins (and more specifially homosexuality), we as a community tend to be very judging. Instead of showing love and forgiveness, we just scream how wrong and bad it is: that's not how Christ handled this. He instead offered his friendship and trust and forgiveness, and in the end he says: "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
What often happens is the opposite: we demand that people "sin no more" in order for us to accept them...i wonder what your thoughts are!
Or maybe that's just me?
As for the whole "celibate homosexuals" topic...my personal opinion is that there's some good to this. If a person is convinced that they were born homosexual (whether you agree with this or not) but chooses to ignore those inclinations out of their love for God, then how is that different to a heterosexual person who ignores their inclincations of lust for God as well? I may be misunderstanding a more complicated issue, but this is just my understanding.
I guess the only thing that I can be totally sure about is that anyone, sinners or not, should be welcomed with open arms...because we're all sinners at the end of the day.
Matthew
But is this ALWAYS the case? I mean, if we're not made to feel at least a little bad for our sins then would we not just keep returning to them?
This is true but that is God's responsibility and His alone. For this to be done properly requires for the 'guilt applier' to be completely objective, something impossible for a human. When people take things like this into their own hands, it can always go wrong, and horribly so. While in some cases it might work, if the person is pure in intention, unforunately there will always be someone who twists that ideal into something ugly. People suck, that's why responsibilities like this belong with God. I think we should only ever show love to a person. If more people did that, there would be less poor people like the dude in the video. Judge not that you be not judged...
[quote author=LondonCopt link=topic=7163.msg94969#msg94969 date=1222948773]
I guess the only thing that I can be totally sure about is that anyone, sinners or not, should be welcomed with open arms...because we're all sinners at the end of the day.
Here here!
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=7163.msg94968#msg94968 date=1222939504]
Instead of showing love and forgiveness, we just scream how wrong and bad it is: that's not how Christ handled this. He instead offered his friendship and trust and forgiveness, and in the end he says: "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
Here here!!!
Listen,
I was heavily involved in the translation of that book. If you'd bother reading it carefully, you'd see that H.Holiness Pope Shenouda was talking about homosexuals asking 'rights' in the Church (i.e. Ordination of Gay Priests/Bishops) - His logic being that it is a sin to be practicing homosexuality whilst the Bible clearly explains that this act is an abomination to God. In no way does the book condone discrimination or intolerance against Homosexuals. FAR FROM IT. How ?? His Holiness said that they are "WELCOME TO COME TO THE CHURCH TO REPENT". When you come to repent, that puts you alongside EVERYONE ELSE STANDING IN THE CHURCH. You then become equal with us all when you take the position of repentance.
You are as welcome to come to the Church to repent and seek healing as much as someone who is an adulterer who wishes to stop and turn from adultary can come to the church to seek repentance also. Both acts are sinful.
Can I say that God created me as a man and therefore I love women too much to the extent that I cannot stop having sexual relations with women when I'm still married? Can I accuse God then of creating me in a way that doesn't make sense to my desires? i.e. That its my natural tendence to be sexually attracted to more than 1 woman, so my wife and the Church should accept that I should have sexual relations with other women outside marriage??? And then to commit adultary whilst I'm married and have the audacity to justify it because "God made me that way"?
God made man incorrupt -and without sin. Sin entered humanity by the envy of satan. We all have to return, through God's grace, back to the original state we were created in. Everyone has problems. EVERYONE. Without exception.
If there are parts in that book you did not understand or feel are unfair, PM me and we'll discuss it offline, but we are not in the business of re-reprinting or changing "right to wrong" and "wrong to right" to appease people's desires.
When Christ said "the road is hard" this is what He was talking about. We are all attached to our personal desires, and have to overcome this in order to attain, and to be worthy of, the price of salvation that was offered for us.
Again, I cannot stress this enough - if you have an issue with this book, PM me - OK? I'll put you in touch with the translator and you can take it up with her as I honestly feel you've misunderstood this entire book.
Regards
[quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94955#msg94955 date=1222922607]
I have a question, maybe someone here can clear this up for me, are homosexuals sinning even though they are not acting on their homosexuality?
The problem here is that we cannot answer that question! Let's face it, the Bible is very sketchy on homosexuality. Yes, it says its wrong and that it goes against God but that is all it says. So ultimately, we cannot know the answer to that question, there is not enough evidence for us to make a conclusion. That is why we need to remove the "taboo" that Learn2Dance is talking about. We think that all homosexuals are sinners and therefore should be reprimanded and punished for their sins but that is hypocrisy. Yes, homosexuals are sinners BUT SO ARE WE!!! I am sure that there are hundreds of homosexuals who are much better people than I am. Just because this particular sin manifests itself differently does not indicate that is worse or more damaging especailly when there is no definitve Biblical evidence to support that idea. Its a form of adultery period. But the people who have grown up thinking they're born gay, I think God will have an incredible amount of mercy on! They have not consciously done wrong and if they are good people, why should it matter?
SO my answer to the question:
I put it to you all (theoretically, I don't know God's mind), that a homosexual person with a sincere commitment to doing good is more worthy in God's eyes than a Christian hetersoxual hypocrite.
Epchoise-NaiNan,
I know many gay people, and they were good people. Inherently really wonderful people. This is not a popularity contest. The Coptic Church is structured around repentance. Whether people are bad or good, its not for us to judge. Homosexual practices are sinful. Period.
H.H Holiness in the book on Homosexuality clearly explains what repentance is for someone gay and what it involves.
I put it to you also Epchoise the Words of Our Lord who said "Although you did miracles in my Name, I do not know you, You lawless" Lawless here means "someone who breaks His Commandments".
Actually, I knew a priest who had a bad temper, but he was very honest. And he struggled so much to overcome his weaknesses. So? Are you just looking for someone cool and fun to hold in high esteem? Are you God?
We are all equal in God's eyes, but we must never change between wrong and right.
I know so many homosexuals that were healed from their homosexual desires. Its a process, and we should encourage repentance. I know so many people that were healed of "addictive" sins from pornography, stealing, gambling, sexual immorality, fornication, etc that were healed through repentance.
I think it far from wise to overshadow the acceptance of a sinner to Christ through repentance with the acceptance of a sinner to Christ because they are just "nice" people.
+mahraeel+
I don't go to church.
If you do not go to church, why does it bother you what the Coptic church thinks?.Dont you think that should be our concern,the concern of those who adore their churches? In other words, you can not give a damn about a body to which you do not belong! I conclude, the topic of your question has no relevance to you.
Mahraeel,
Thx, You put a smile on my face the to other day:-)
[quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94966#msg94966 date=1222931699]
I don't go to church.
If you do not go to church, why does it bother you what the Coptic church thinks?.Dont you think that should be our concern,the concern of those who adore their churches? In other words, you can not give a damn about a body to which you do not belong! I conclude, the topic of your question has no relevance to you.
i wanted to say that but i didn't want to be too extreme.
Learn2dance, you still haven't told us where are you from....or which church you used to go to?
[quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=7163.msg94985#msg94985 date=1222982511]
[quote author=Learn2dance link=topic=7163.msg94966#msg94966 date=1222931699]
I don't go to church.
If you do not go to church, why does it bother you what the Coptic church thinks?.Dont you think that should be our concern,the concern of those who adore their churches? In other words, you can not give a damn about a body to which you do not belong! I conclude, the topic of your question has no relevance to you.
i wanted to say that but i didn't want to be too extreme.
Learn2dance, you still haven't told us where are you from....or which church you used to go to?
That line 'I don't go to church' makes all his arguments irrelavant and pointless. It gave him away.That is what a friend of mine calls 'reading between the lines'. It is a one liner but tells volumes about the amount of contempt the person has for the body of Christ. S/he has no business to question something that S/he has no clue of,except for dancing purposes. Bear in mind, when S/he says the Coptic church is 'intolerant to gays';who in my view are the abomination of nature, s/he is accusing the true church of christ of 'arrogance and pride'.Now,I do not know about you,but that does not sit well with me, becasue it simply is a blatant LIE. Imagine , I do not know you, but I have the audacity to complain, question or label you all kinds of derogatory terms that comes to mind,because you do not accept my tendencies. No way,Jose!
Matthew
I seriously believe it is our duty, as servents of the Church at least, to welcome people like "learn2dance" to the Church, rather than criticise them.
The one who said homosexuality is wrong, also said judging is wrong, so we are not better off if we judge.
The person, in a state of sin, suffers whilst in that state. If, as a Church, we tell homosexuals that they should come and repent in Church, then what chance do we give them of repenting if we have this "Accusatory" spirit amongst us? What will they find if they come to Church? Their homosexual friends have accepted them - but we should also learn to accept them in the Church and guide them to repentance. At this rate, why bother being part of the body of Christ, when the other members don't really want you?
I co-translated & published that book on Homosexuality. I wouldn't have done it if it meant that the Church rejects in anyway a sinner. And this attitude is doing just that. I have no part in it.
Learn2dance, there is no doubt that repentance is an invitation to life. For everyone. You must see the Church community as equal to you. Your particular sin is one which we may not share in, but we all have sins that are equally as bad. We just cannot justify our weaknesses and illnesses because our human natures and desires make us sinful. The struggle to overcome sin is a crown initself and you shall be rewarded with that. In fact, to struggle against this sin is very good in God's eyes. No one is really "worthy" to enter Heaven, but those who are considered worthy are those that have struggled the most, and not taken for granted the price of their Salvation that Our Lord paid on the cross. By not struggling against our carnal and lustful desires, we are careless in how we treat God's salvation for us.
God will never ask you why you sinned being a homosexual... He will ask you why you didn't struggle against it and repent. That applies for everyone.
Christ says in the Gospel of Saint Matthew Chapter 11 Verse 24:
"But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgement than for you".
This verse can be understood in a few different ways. When Christ says more tolerable for Sodom than for you, "you", are the people who will not believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Well, look at this verse from a different angle. Why out of all sinful stories in the Old Testament, did Christ chose this one to compare it too? When you say this is better than this, the lesser thing you are comparing it too is the one at the top of the list. This means that the punishment for Sodom will be SEVERE. It is true that lying, adultery, and murder are all deadly sins, but because of this verse, we can clearly see that homosexuality is worse than all these because Christ used it in his example. Right now, you can steal, lie, murder, commit adultery and sin all you want without punishment, but there will be a day when you will pay for it, BIG TIME!
PK
Whether this person goes to church or not is irrelevant I think. He/she came here to ask a question and we are simply clarifying our church's position. Labelling them as "pointless" isn't the right way to bring this person to our faith...we should be preaching to ALL nations, whether they are part of our church or not. Let's show a little more love?
Matthew
i agree=)
+mahraeel+
What is the point of this topic? It basically sounds like your trying to make homosexuality a non-sinful act. Well guess what, our church will never classify homosexuality as okay. Why is it wrong? Because God said so, thats why.
Christ says in the Gospel of Saint Matthew Chapter 11 Verse 24:
"But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgement than for you".
This verse can be understood in a few different ways. When Christ says more tolerable for Sodom than for you, "you", are the people who will not believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Well, look at this verse from a different angle. Why out of all sinful stories in the Old Testament, did Christ chose this one to compare it too? When you say this is better than this, the lesser thing you are comparing it too is the one at the top of the list. This means that the punishment for Sodom will be SEVERE. It is true that lying, adultery, and murder are all deadly sins, but because of this verse, we can clearly see that homosexuality is worse than all these because Christ used it in his example. Right now, you can steal, lie, murder, commit adultery and sin all you want without punishment, but there will be a day when you will pay for it, BIG TIME!
PK
I am going to have to disagree to an extent. All sins are equal. All sins yield separation from God, therefore, they are all seen equally - one does not reign over the other. We say that pride is actually the sin of sins, as it is that which opened the door for all sins to enter into the world (Lucifer's pride is what caused his downfall).
With that clear, there are numerous references in the Bible that say that homosexuality is wrong, as you mentioned. It is of course a sin and as such, the Coptic Church treats it like any other - people that sin in this manner need to work on it, just as people that lust, people that cheat, people with foul tongues, and so on.
There is as much tolerance for homosexuals as there is for other offenders - namely, complete tolerance! Tolerance, meaning that everyone is accepted to the Church so long as the pledge and vow to work hard at overcoming the struggle. Just as everyone else vows to overcome their own unique struggles. This issue is no different.
But PopeKyrillos, you are absolutely right - there is no chance of course that our Church would consider making homosexuality a 'norm'.
It isn't even in the realm of possibility. You just have to work at it, or stay celibate and control your lust.
On earth, no sin is greater than another, but after death, the punishment of sins like homosexuality will be greater than the punishment for other sins.
PK
I think looking at a sin through our eyes, is different than looking at a sin from God's eyes. One of the only sins (if not the only one) that we can say is at the top of the list is homosexuality and I stated in my earlier post the reason for that. We cannot say lying is worse than adultery because all Christ said was that they were bad as all sins are. But with homosexuality, indirectly, Christ told us that it was basically one of the worst sins. I don't disagree with the fact that all sin is seperation from God, but the severity of the punishment for homosexuality, is clearly very harsh as Christ explained himself. It is probably more harsh than the punishment for most other sins because Christ used Sodom in his example for that verse. For example, Why didn't he use the example of Cain and Abel? That's why I reasoned that murder is more tolerable than homosexuality. Don't get me wrong though, homosexuality, and murder or any other sin can be 100% forgiven through repentance and confession.
On earth, no sin is greater than another, but after death, the punishment of sins like homosexuality will be greater than the punishment for other sins.
PK
PK, i think you are getting confused......
Look, it's that simple to understand:
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.