[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg94998#msg94998 date=1222990269] We all agree on the point that all sin leads to death. But aren't certain sins worse that other's in God's eyes?
PK
No all sins are equal, All lead to death and one is not less or better in God's eyes. Its all a seperation from him.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg94998#msg94998 date=1222990269] We all agree on the point that all sin leads to death. But aren't certain sins worse that other's in God's eyes?
PK
what's different is the consequence of certain sins. i think this is the point you are trying to make.
like being homosexual in thought is differnt that in body/action. both have major differnt affects on people. but in GOd's eyes and according to HIS LAW, Sin is the same.
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7163.msg95001#msg95001 date=1222990651] [quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg94998#msg94998 date=1222990269] We all agree on the point that all sin leads to death. But aren't certain sins worse that other's in God's eyes?
PK
what's different is the consequence of certain sins. i think this is the point you are trying to make.
like being homosexual in thought is differnt that in body/action. both have major differnt affects on people. but in GOd's eyes and according to HIS LAW, Sin is the same.
All sins have the same consequence as well in front of God...not sure what you are saying here. All sin is death. Period. There are no varying levels.
There are different consequences according to the legal system and depending on what country you are in, but according to God's laws, it all leads death.
jydeacon, all sins r equal? really? but isnt it considered for instance that murder is worse than lying? if they are equal, why is one worse than the other?
[quote author=mahraeel link=topic=7163.msg95004#msg95004 date=1222996685] jydeacon, all sins r equal? really? but isnt it considered for instance that murder is worse than lying? if they are equal, why is one worse than the other?
+mahraeel+
None are worse than the other. As Orthodox, we believe that all sins are equal. It is the Catholics who seperate sins into, for the sake of simplicity, 'bad sins' and 'really bad sins'.
The 'Seven Deadly Sins' are not recognized by the Orthodox Church, perse. They are defined as "great offenses against God, or moral faults which, if habitual, could result in the spiritual death of the individual".
However, these result in the death of the individual, as you see. In front of God, they are the same as things that we may consider 'minor'.
[quote author=LondonCopt link=topic=7163.msg94988#msg94988 date=1222985239] Whether this person goes to church or not is irrelevant I think. He/she came here to ask a question and we are simply clarifying our church's position. Labelling them as "pointless" isn't the right way to bring this person to our faith...we should be preaching to ALL nations, whether they are part of our church or not. Let's show a little more love? Matthew
While I basically know what you say,I see serious flaws with the approach of the person concerned.I feel, S/he is not asking out of ignorance. It seems to me, based on what I have read sofar,the person is much more concerned about her/his own feelings. S/he finds the act of Homosexuality cool, but does not only wonder why the church rejects it,but has already established the fact that the church of Chirst is 'arrogant' in its handling of the matter. Now, asking is not wrong.That is not my point. My problem is with someone who insults and degrades something that S/he does not know or belong to and then asks with disdain. To claim that the Coptic church is 'intolerant' to Gays is to ask the church to change its position and defy God's law and reject his commandments. Many of you have made it clear that homosexuality is a sin in the Coptic Church as is exactly outlined in the Bible. The question has been answered,the story should have ended there but the tide of contempt is not ebbing. Why ? The Bible declares 'be wise like a serpent,but harmless as doves". In other words, it is wise to be wary.That is what I am doing.
Severus one are worse than the other. As Orthodox, we believe that all sins are equal. It is the Catholics who seperate sins into, for the sake of simplicity, 'bad sins' and 'really bad sins'
How do you explain the following?
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death" (I John 5:16-17)
[quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=7163.msg95008#msg95008 date=1222998687] If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death" (I John 5:16-17)
The sin not leading to death is that which we are currently repenting for. The sin that leads to death is just that - sins that we commit, but do not confess and acknowledge. We turn blind to these, and as such, continue on in their path. St. John is not referring to the 'type' of sin, but rather to how we treat any sin.
[quote author=mahraeel link=topic=7163.msg95004#msg95004 date=1222996685] jydeacon, all sins r equal? really? but isnt it considered for instance that murder is worse than lying? if they are equal, why is one worse than the other?
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95002#msg95002 date=1222994934] [quote author=minagir link=topic=7163.msg95001#msg95001 date=1222990651] [quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg94998#msg94998 date=1222990269] We all agree on the point that all sin leads to death. But aren't certain sins worse that other's in God's eyes?
PK
what's different is the consequence of certain sins. i think this is the point you are trying to make.
like being homosexual in thought is differnt that in body/action. both have major differnt affects on people. but in GOd's eyes and according to HIS LAW, Sin is the same.
All sins have the same consequence as well in front of God...not sure what you are saying here. All sin is death. Period. There are no varying levels.
There are different consequences according to the legal system and depending on what country you are in, but according to God's laws, it all leads death.
i don't think what's i have said is against that. When I use the word “consequence”, I refer to the effects of the sin, not necessarily on the only the person who is committing the sin, but others to.
Yes we know that in God’s eyes, according to HIS LAW, all sins are the same. You break one of the commandments, you break all…it’s that simple to understand. And as I said before, “the wage of sin is death”
Here though, the Holy Bible uses the word “wage” not consequence, which by being used, refers only to those who commit the sin, directly to them. But not referring to others.
I found this whole thread amusing. As someone who previously had been involved in homosexuality, I have been warmly accepted by those I have told- obviously knowing that I am repentant. There is no doubt in my mind that homosexuality is an abomination. I think in the Coptic Church, those who committed adultery would have the same reaction from the bigots that you may be talking about. The spiritual fathers, however, when they condemn homosexuality, I have no doubt would condemn adultery if people thought that it was an equal "lifestyle choice". I know this because I know how seriously these fathers view all sins. The special thing about homosexuality is the absurd denial that is going on.
The wages of sin is death- it is enmity to God- it is being away from His presence. That is the cost of following these desires that have no use when it is acted upon for the glory of God.
[quote author=clay link=topic=7163.msg95025#msg95025 date=1223022512] I found this whole thread amusing. As someone who previously had been involved in homosexuality, I have been warmly accepted by those I have told- obviously knowing that I am repentant. There is no doubt in my mind that homosexuality is an abomination. I think in the Coptic Church, those who committed adultery would have the same reaction from the bigots that you may be talking about. The spiritual fathers, however, when they condemn homosexuality, I have no doubt would condemn adultery if people thought that it was an equal "lifestyle choice". I know this because I know how seriously these fathers view all sins. The special thing about homosexuality is the absurd denial that is going on.
The wages of sin is death- it is enmity to God- it is being away from His presence. That is the cost of following these desires that have no use when it is acted upon for the glory of God.
Clay,
That was very interesting. Are you completely healed of this? Also, what was the process that led you to abandon homosexuality?
I want to ask you as someone with personal experience.... [quote author=clay link=topic=7163.msg95025#msg95025 date=1223022512] The special thing about homosexuality is the absurd denial that is going on.
Say someone you know has no connection to the Chrurch or God truly believes that they are born homosexual and that it is a part of who they are, what is the best thing for a Christian to do?
Personally, I believe that we should ignore the fact that they are gay and not try to convert them or convince them that it is wrong. At least not until you are very good friends and they can trust your words. Before that, isn't telling the person that what they are doing is wrong just going to hurt them? I mean look at the video in the first post of this thread. I think that's a perfect example of where good intentioned preaching can go horribly wrong, when it is used in the wrong situation. So what I'm saying is that we shouldn't be handing out copies of Pope Shenouda's book on Homosexuality to the completely uninitiated because although its all true, it does nothing but stir up anger. Would you agree?
Btw QT_PA_2T while you're here lol ;D I just wanted to clarify something:
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7163.msg94975#msg94975 date=1222954090] I know many gay people, and they were good people. Inherently really wonderful people. This is not a popularity contest. The Coptic Church is structured around repentance. Whether people are bad or good, its not for us to judge. Homosexual practices are sinful. Period.
I'm not talking about just being nice people, what I mean is people who do good out for the sake of good. Following God's unwritten law. This passage (its Romans 2:12-14) sums up what I mean pretty well:
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7163.msg94975#msg94975 date=1222954090] I think it far from wise to overshadow the acceptance of a sinner to Christ through repentance with the acceptance of a sinner to Christ because they are just "nice" people.
I am in no way saying that homosexuality should not be repented from, its a bad thing and very very damaging no doubt. I am attacking the mindset which will stop people from making gay friends and cause Christians to condemn homosexuals and treat them with contempt. The point I want to make is that homosexuals recieve a lot of hostility (a lot of the time from Christians) none of which they deserve because it is just another sin. No more no less. I'm not saying that we change what is right and wrong, I just want to open people's minds to the fact that gay people are sinners JUST LIKE US and so do not deserve to be treated differently in any way.
Sry guys, this post belonged two pages back, just ignore it and move forward ;)
Yes, it is very disturbing to see the hostility from Copts against homosexuals in the Church;but I think the attitude would be different if someone gay didn't have the attitude of attacking the Church for its stance on homosexuality from the beginning.
No one is more welcome in the Church than someone repenting. The only people who are unworthy are those who feel they are worthy to be in the Church - (Quoted from H.H Pope Shenouda).
[quote author=epchois_nai_nan link=topic=7163.msg95027#msg95027 date=1223024183] Hi clay,
I want to ask you as someone with personal experience.... [quote author=clay link=topic=7163.msg95025#msg95025 date=1223022512] The special thing about homosexuality is the absurd denial that is going on.
Say someone you know has no connection to the Chrurch or God truly believes that they are born homosexual and that it is a part of who they are, what is the best thing for a Christian to do?
Personally, I believe that we should ignore the fact that they are gay and not try to convert them or convince them that it is wrong. At least not until you are very good friends and they can trust your words. Before that, isn't telling the person that what they are doing is wrong just going to hurt them? I mean look at the video in the first post of this thread. I think that's a perfect example of where good intentioned preaching can go horribly wrong, when it is used in the wrong situation. So what I'm saying is that we shouldn't be handing out copies of Pope Shenouda's book on Homosexuality to the completely uninitiated because although its all true, it does nothing but stir up anger. Would you agree?
I agree. There are some books from Exodus that are great. With my ex, I had to establish clear boundaries, and say, "I love you but I no longer approve nor can I participate with you in this. God loves you more than I can ever fathom, and He knows this is not going to satisfy you."
I will talk more about my experiences then a bit later. Please pray for me.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg95030#msg95030 date=1223036482] So then why is Judas in the lowest part of Hades? If sin is sin, then why did he go to the lowest part of hades?
sorry I did not read the 6 pages of replies... because I have heard it all, everything imaginable about homosexuality, and talking about it is at times, useless!
but here is what saint pambo says, "Judge not him who is guilty of fornication, if you are chaste, or you will break the law like him. For He who said do not fornicate said also do not judge."
all I have to say is worry about your salvation, before you worry about others!
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95034#msg95034 date=1223060336] [quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg95030#msg95030 date=1223036482] So then why is Judas in the lowest part of Hades? If sin is sin, then why did he go to the lowest part of hades?
PK
First of all, what is your source on that?
I think it says so in our pascha book....maybe mistaken!!!
[quote author=Hailemikael link=topic=7163.msg95037#msg95037 date=1223067172] what about blaspheming against the holy spirit?? I thought that was the worst sin ever... where you can't be forgiven?
hmm
Blaspheming against the Holy spirit is not letting Him work in you your whole life and never repenting for the sins you commit. So when you die, you can't be forgiven because you never repented.
[quote author=Severus link=topic=7163.msg95011#msg95011 date=1223000320] [quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=7163.msg95008#msg95008 date=1222998687] If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death" (I John 5:16-17)
The sin not leading to death is that which we are currently repenting for. The sin that leads to death is just that - sins that we commit, but do not confess and acknowledge. We turn blind to these, and as such, continue on in their path. St. John is not referring to the 'type' of sin, but rather to how we treat any sin.
I have to disagree with you and JD on this one.I tend to go with the explanation of Mahareel and PK.The 7 deadly sins that mahareel listed may not be identified as such in the orthodox church (mortal and venial sins are pure Catholic terms), but the Bible says a person who commits those sins does not inherit the kingdom of God. The non-inheritance of the kingdom of God is equal to eternal death. I will be back later to explain why I think my understanding of St John in regards to " If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death" is entirely different than your take.
Clay, Thx for you frank and candid comments. I have admiration for your openess and am glad for your eventual healing. Praised be the Lord!
Yes, actually in the book of the Pascha, it says: [quote=Holy Pascha] "Woe to you Judas, for you have met a punishment without parallel and brought damnation upon yourself."
It is clear though from the Gospels that Judas was a very special case. He obviously deserves a vast punishment...he committed a sin that none of us can really do. The Lord even says, "it would have been better for such a man not to have been born".
Those of you who think that ALL SINS ARE EQUAL, I have a Q for you. which one is worse;to murder or to lie; to commit adultery or steal out of poverty? Do you think a thief is as guilty as a child molester or a rapist? The Bible tells us clearly that "the wages of sin is death." However,does this mean all sins are equal? I think not. God's Word throughout the Bible shows that some sins are worse than others with some of them having greater reprecussions to the sinner and those that are affected through the sinner.
Abraham ,for example, lied about his wife Sarah. He did so out of fear and not to intentionally rebel against God. Still, he sinned, because he was imperfect,but the Lord did not rebuke him for His friend Abraham did not transgress willfully. Let us compare his minor sin with Israel's making of the Golden Calf while Moses ascended Mount Sinai . The Jews forgot their God and began worshipping an Idol. When Moses came down,he told them that they had "sinned a great sin" (Exodus 32 :21). Committing idolatry is so disastrous that God instructs Moses that "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book" (Exodus 32: 33). To be erased from the book of life means to keep Lucifer and his hosts company for eternity.What made their sin even more worse was that they worshipped the idol on a Sabbath day, the day they were supposed to keep holy.By doing so,the Israelities broke the first 3 or 4 commandments at the same time.
In another example, David committed the sin of faithlessness by numbering Israel .Even though David was among the faithful servants of God, he had his human imperefections. Somewhere in the book of Samuel, the Psalmist confesses to God that he had "sinned greatly." As a result , his sin costed the lives of 70,000 men. His actions lead him to pride making him rely on his resources more than God.We know what the sin of Pride did to Satan!
In the New testament, Jesus says to Pilate during His trial: "‘You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin' (John 19:11). The Lord is clearly stating that there are greater and lesser sins with varying degrees of punishment The more serious the Sin,the more severe the punishment. Even in our fragile human society,a judge would not render the same punishment over a petty thief and a serial murderer.In other words, the punishment must fit the crime.
Comments
PK
We all agree on the point that all sin leads to death. But aren't certain sins worse that other's in God's eyes?
PK
No all sins are equal, All lead to death and one is not less or better in God's eyes. Its all a seperation from him.
We all agree on the point that all sin leads to death. But aren't certain sins worse that other's in God's eyes?
PK
what's different is the consequence of certain sins. i think this is the point you are trying to make.
like being homosexual in thought is differnt that in body/action. both have major differnt affects on people. but in GOd's eyes and according to HIS LAW, Sin is the same.
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg94998#msg94998 date=1222990269]
We all agree on the point that all sin leads to death. But aren't certain sins worse that other's in God's eyes?
PK
what's different is the consequence of certain sins. i think this is the point you are trying to make.
like being homosexual in thought is differnt that in body/action. both have major differnt affects on people. but in GOd's eyes and according to HIS LAW, Sin is the same.
All sins have the same consequence as well in front of God...not sure what you are saying here. All sin is death. Period. There are no varying levels.
There are different consequences according to the legal system and depending on what country you are in, but according to God's laws, it all leads death.
+mahraeel+
jydeacon, all sins r equal? really? but isnt it considered for instance that murder is worse than lying? if they are equal, why is one worse than the other?
+mahraeel+
None are worse than the other. As Orthodox, we believe that all sins are equal. It is the Catholics who seperate sins into, for the sake of simplicity, 'bad sins' and 'really bad sins'.
+mahraeel+
However, these result in the death of the individual, as you see. In front of God, they are the same as things that we may consider 'minor'.
Whether this person goes to church or not is irrelevant I think. He/she came here to ask a question and we are simply clarifying our church's position. Labelling them as "pointless" isn't the right way to bring this person to our faith...we should be preaching to ALL nations, whether they are part of our church or not. Let's show a little more love?
Matthew
While I basically know what you say,I see serious flaws with the approach of the person concerned.I feel, S/he is not asking out of ignorance. It seems to me, based on what I have read sofar,the person is much more concerned about her/his own feelings. S/he finds the act of Homosexuality cool, but does not only wonder why the church rejects it,but has already established the fact that the church of Chirst is 'arrogant' in its handling of the matter. Now, asking is not wrong.That is not my point. My problem is with someone who insults and degrades something that S/he does not know or belong to and then asks with disdain. To claim that the Coptic church is 'intolerant' to Gays is to ask the church to change its position and defy God's law and reject his commandments. Many of you have made it clear that homosexuality is a sin in the Coptic Church as is exactly outlined in the Bible. The question has been answered,the story should have ended there but the tide of contempt is not ebbing. Why ? The Bible declares 'be wise like a serpent,but harmless as doves". In other words, it is wise to be wary.That is what I am doing. How do you explain the following?
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death" (I John 5:16-17)
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death" (I John 5:16-17)
The sin not leading to death is that which we are currently repenting for. The sin that leads to death is just that - sins that we commit, but do not confess and acknowledge. We turn blind to these, and as such, continue on in their path. St. John is not referring to the 'type' of sin, but rather to how we treat any sin.
jydeacon, all sins r equal? really? but isnt it considered for instance that murder is worse than lying? if they are equal, why is one worse than the other?
+mahraeel+
Severus hit the nail right on the head
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7163.msg95001#msg95001 date=1222990651]
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg94998#msg94998 date=1222990269]
We all agree on the point that all sin leads to death. But aren't certain sins worse that other's in God's eyes?
PK
what's different is the consequence of certain sins. i think this is the point you are trying to make.
like being homosexual in thought is differnt that in body/action. both have major differnt affects on people. but in GOd's eyes and according to HIS LAW, Sin is the same.
All sins have the same consequence as well in front of God...not sure what you are saying here. All sin is death. Period. There are no varying levels.
There are different consequences according to the legal system and depending on what country you are in, but according to God's laws, it all leads death.
i don't think what's i have said is against that. When I use the word “consequence”, I refer to the effects of the sin, not necessarily on the only the person who is committing the sin, but others to.
Yes we know that in God’s eyes, according to HIS LAW, all sins are the same. You break one of the commandments, you break all…it’s that simple to understand. And as I said before, “the wage of sin is death”
Here though, the Holy Bible uses the word “wage” not consequence, which by being used, refers only to those who commit the sin, directly to them. But not referring to others.
The wages of sin is death- it is enmity to God- it is being away from His presence. That is the cost of following these desires that have no use when it is acted upon for the glory of God.
I found this whole thread amusing. As someone who previously had been involved in homosexuality, I have been warmly accepted by those I have told- obviously knowing that I am repentant. There is no doubt in my mind that homosexuality is an abomination. I think in the Coptic Church, those who committed adultery would have the same reaction from the bigots that you may be talking about. The spiritual fathers, however, when they condemn homosexuality, I have no doubt would condemn adultery if people thought that it was an equal "lifestyle choice". I know this because I know how seriously these fathers view all sins. The special thing about homosexuality is the absurd denial that is going on.
The wages of sin is death- it is enmity to God- it is being away from His presence. That is the cost of following these desires that have no use when it is acted upon for the glory of God.
Clay,
That was very interesting. Are you completely healed of this? Also, what was the process that led you to abandon homosexuality?
Thanks
I want to ask you as someone with personal experience....
[quote author=clay link=topic=7163.msg95025#msg95025 date=1223022512]
The special thing about homosexuality is the absurd denial that is going on.
Say someone you know has no connection to the Chrurch or God truly believes that they are born homosexual and that it is a part of who they are, what is the best thing for a Christian to do?
Personally, I believe that we should ignore the fact that they are gay and not try to convert them or convince them that it is wrong. At least not until you are very good friends and they can trust your words. Before that, isn't telling the person that what they are doing is wrong just going to hurt them? I mean look at the video in the first post of this thread. I think that's a perfect example of where good intentioned preaching can go horribly wrong, when it is used in the wrong situation. So what I'm saying is that we shouldn't be handing out copies of Pope Shenouda's book on Homosexuality to the completely uninitiated because although its all true, it does nothing but stir up anger. Would you agree?
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7163.msg94975#msg94975 date=1222954090]
I know many gay people, and they were good people. Inherently really wonderful people. This is not a popularity contest. The Coptic Church is structured around repentance. Whether people are bad or good, its not for us to judge. Homosexual practices are sinful. Period.
I'm not talking about just being nice people, what I mean is people who do good out for the sake of good. Following God's unwritten law. This passage (its Romans 2:12-14) sums up what I mean pretty well:
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
[quote author=QT_PA_2T link=topic=7163.msg94975#msg94975 date=1222954090]
I think it far from wise to overshadow the acceptance of a sinner to Christ through repentance with the acceptance of a sinner to Christ because they are just "nice" people.
I am in no way saying that homosexuality should not be repented from, its a bad thing and very very damaging no doubt. I am attacking the mindset which will stop people from making gay friends and cause Christians to condemn homosexuals and treat them with contempt. The point I want to make is that homosexuals recieve a lot of hostility (a lot of the time from Christians) none of which they deserve because it is just another sin. No more no less. I'm not saying that we change what is right and wrong, I just want to open people's minds to the fact that gay people are sinners JUST LIKE US and so do not deserve to be treated differently in any way.
Sry guys, this post belonged two pages back, just ignore it and move forward ;)
Yes, it is very disturbing to see the hostility from Copts against homosexuals in the Church;but I think the attitude would be different if someone gay didn't have the attitude of attacking the Church for its stance on homosexuality from the beginning.
No one is more welcome in the Church than someone repenting. The only people who are unworthy are those who feel they are worthy to be in the Church - (Quoted from H.H Pope Shenouda).
PK
Hi clay,
I want to ask you as someone with personal experience....
[quote author=clay link=topic=7163.msg95025#msg95025 date=1223022512]
The special thing about homosexuality is the absurd denial that is going on.
Say someone you know has no connection to the Chrurch or God truly believes that they are born homosexual and that it is a part of who they are, what is the best thing for a Christian to do?
Personally, I believe that we should ignore the fact that they are gay and not try to convert them or convince them that it is wrong. At least not until you are very good friends and they can trust your words. Before that, isn't telling the person that what they are doing is wrong just going to hurt them? I mean look at the video in the first post of this thread. I think that's a perfect example of where good intentioned preaching can go horribly wrong, when it is used in the wrong situation. So what I'm saying is that we shouldn't be handing out copies of Pope Shenouda's book on Homosexuality to the completely uninitiated because although its all true, it does nothing but stir up anger. Would you agree?
I agree. There are some books from Exodus that are great. With my ex, I had to establish clear boundaries, and say, "I love you but I no longer approve nor can I participate with you in this. God loves you more than I can ever fathom, and He knows this is not going to satisfy you."
I will talk more about my experiences then a bit later. Please pray for me.
So then why is Judas in the lowest part of Hades? If sin is sin, then why did he go to the lowest part of hades?
PK
First of all, what is your source on that?
but here is what saint pambo says, "Judge not him who is guilty of fornication, if you are chaste, or you will break the law like him. For He who said do not fornicate said also do not judge."
all I have to say is worry about your salvation, before you worry about others!
akhdna el baraka... neshkor allah!
[quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=7163.msg95030#msg95030 date=1223036482]
So then why is Judas in the lowest part of Hades? If sin is sin, then why did he go to the lowest part of hades?
PK
First of all, what is your source on that?
I think it says so in our pascha book....maybe mistaken!!!
hmm
what about blaspheming against the holy spirit?? I thought that was the worst sin ever... where you can't be forgiven?
hmm
Blaspheming against the Holy spirit is not letting Him work in you your whole life and never repenting for the sins you commit. So when you die, you can't be forgiven because you never repented.
[quote author=Hezekiel link=topic=7163.msg95008#msg95008 date=1222998687]
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death" (I John 5:16-17)
The sin not leading to death is that which we are currently repenting for. The sin that leads to death is just that - sins that we commit, but do not confess and acknowledge. We turn blind to these, and as such, continue on in their path. St. John is not referring to the 'type' of sin, but rather to how we treat any sin.
I have to disagree with you and JD on this one.I tend to go with the explanation of Mahareel and PK.The 7 deadly sins that mahareel listed may not be identified as such in the orthodox church (mortal and venial sins are pure Catholic terms), but the Bible says a person who commits those sins does not inherit the kingdom of God. The non-inheritance of the kingdom of God is equal to eternal death. I will be back later to explain why I think my understanding of St John in regards to " If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death" is entirely different than your take.
Clay,
Thx for you frank and candid comments. I have admiration for your openess and am glad for your eventual healing. Praised be the Lord!
[quote=Holy Pascha]
"Woe to you Judas, for you have met a punishment without parallel and brought damnation upon yourself."
It is clear though from the Gospels that Judas was a very special case. He obviously deserves a vast punishment...he committed a sin that none of us can really do. The Lord even says, "it would have been better for such a man not to have been born".
God bless.
Abraham ,for example, lied about his wife Sarah. He did so out of fear and not to intentionally rebel against God. Still, he sinned, because he was imperfect,but the Lord did not rebuke him for His friend Abraham did not transgress willfully. Let us compare his minor sin with Israel's making of the Golden Calf while Moses ascended Mount Sinai . The Jews forgot their God and began worshipping an Idol. When Moses came down,he told them that they had "sinned a great sin" (Exodus 32 :21). Committing idolatry is so disastrous that God instructs Moses that "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book" (Exodus 32: 33). To be erased from the book of life means to keep Lucifer and his hosts company for eternity.What made their sin even more worse was that they worshipped the idol on a Sabbath day, the day they were supposed to keep holy.By doing so,the Israelities broke the first 3 or 4 commandments at the same time.
In another example, David committed the sin of faithlessness by numbering Israel .Even though David was among the faithful servants of God, he had his human imperefections. Somewhere in the book of Samuel, the Psalmist confesses to God that he had "sinned greatly." As a result , his sin costed the lives of 70,000 men. His actions lead him to pride making him rely on his resources more than God.We know what the sin of Pride did to Satan!
In the New testament, Jesus says to Pilate during His trial: "‘You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin' (John 19:11). The Lord is clearly stating that there are greater and lesser sins with varying degrees of punishment The more serious the Sin,the more severe the punishment. Even in our fragile human society,a judge would not render the same punishment over a petty thief and a serial murderer.In other words, the punishment must fit the crime.
There is no such thing as a justified sin or a minor sin. All sin equals death, equally.
Pride can be considered, excuse the reference, 'First among Equals'.