[quote author=Crazy4Christ1 link=topic=10187.msg124522#msg124522 date=1292367834] i would say no because as a deacon you are the example people look up to. best thing to do is just read and/or mediate on all readings before church
OK..what if Im not dressed as a deacon. What if I stand quietly at the back of the Church going through the iCoptic App during the Bible reading so I can understand what is being read??
Like why would it not be ok.. especially with God...I think he would rather you understand something instead of just standing there...and dont wory what ppl think of you. Our abounas approve of it. & again... I DEF SAY ITS OK :)
I say NO.......it's not about the fact that you'll be using the device to read the Bible...it is about WHAT ELSE you'll do bel-marrah. So you read the Pauline....then the catholic than the praxis...before you put down your iphone you'll be like "oh. how about checking my email....my texts....WHAT TIME IT IS." all of these distractions that can come up. you can say "that will not happen to me"....but we all say that in almost everything else.
if you know that the readings are always going to be in arabic than simply read them before liturgy.....which we are actually supposed to do to gain the most out of liturgical readings. there is a reason that there is ONLINE KATAMEROS...the bible is online...there is a reason i spend that much time to prepare and have that much liturgical text online.....not for you to print them out and take them to church ONLY but to actually REAd and UNdertand them before they are done in church. things that happen in church sometime pass so fast that we don't comprehend everything we do.
OK..great, I asked a question, and now I'm getting different responses.
Can I just have a show of hands ??
All those FOR it (i.e. reading your iCoptic App, whilst standing/sitting at the BACK OF THE CHURCH, during the Bible Readings in Church) Say YES (JUST YES)...and those AGAINST IT say NO (JUST NO).
It seems to me that those against it want me to read the Bible passages before going into the Church... OK..but when the Bible is being read, I'm STILL not going to be following / understanding a single word of it.
Secondly, I don't have a synaxarium at home.
Minagir - i think I made it clear that its ONLY on AIRPLANE MODE...so..no internet access nothing. No checking email...
Of course, checking email during the Bible reading is STUPID..I won't even be tempted to do that. However, I will always open my Bible app IF EVER a verse is being read where I may want to understand it more.
That's All.
Please - just respond with a simple YES or NO (don't give explanations).
Oh..by the way.. I don't have internet connection on my iPhone when I'm in the street..only WiFi..so there's NO chance anyway of doing anything outside of iCoptic, and my Bible apps..
If you are concerned about whether you should use it or not then do as I have suggested and speak to your own spiritual father and follow his advice. As my mother often said, 'If everyone was jumping off a cliff would you follow them?!'. So it doesn't really matter if everyone here said to do something. It could still be wrong.
I am very pleased that this thread has opened up into a wider consideration of technology in the liturgy.
Hos Erof, and others, I would be interested in having some sense of what problems the technology is thought to solve.
In most Orthodox Churches I have been to, of various ethnicities, there is usually a service book given out at the door, and collected afterwards. If people are STEALING them then surely that is a moral issue that the priest and deacons should deal with? If children are DESTROYING them then surely that also is a moral issue that the priest and deacons should deal with?
I would have thought that in earlier centuries and millenia there was not a need for books in any case? What is needed is attention? Does a member of the congregation need to see and read the deacons parts of the litanies? Or simply to attend, to listen, and to respond? In other Orthodox services I have attended it is the deacons and priests who particularly need a book, but I have not seen so many where all of the congregation had to have a book as well.
Do the congregation not know the Lord's Prayer, the Creed, and many other fixed parts of the services? Is it NECESSARY to follow the words rather than follow the flow and participate in the prayers? There are times, such as baptisms, when I have wanted to print out the entire text and hand it to people and my bishop has said, people don't need to follow all the words, that will just distract them from following the service. And to a great extent that is true. If the part of the laity is to pray Kyrie Eleison, Our Father, the Creed etc then they don't need to see everyone else's parts, they will hear them in due course if they pay attention, and indeed with a 20 page booklet for a baptism they may well be turning pages, wondering how much longer this is going to go on for etc etc.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10187.msg124612#msg124612 date=1292400512] Hos Erof, and others, I would be interested in having some sense of what problems the technology is thought to solve.
i think i can speak a little for Hos Erof since i did/am work/ing with him in many of these things. On our case, being outside egypt, we speak different languages. In the states we only have to deal with one language: English....that's why we have much more translation of texts (liturgy with all it's yearly hymns, tasbeha, prayers..etc) in english than any other language because there are that much of us who do work on it. when you get to Europe, you have to deal with many other languages: French, Polish, dutch (which hos erof mainly speaks)...etc. After translating, you than have to deal with reviewing then more reviewing and the last process is printing the books. that takes a LOT OF TIME....i guess also money. i can give an example: the Southern diocese lead by HGB Youssef have been working on a "deacon's servants" book for more than i can remember.....maybe 10 yrs. and i think they JUST printed it....and it is still not being sold. even though, from the screen shots of the book that i have seen, i am actually not happy with it--i just expect a perfect book that will be used by generations to come (like cantor Farag book for example which was published many yrs before i was born and is still the best book ever). Now having presentations (and apps if you'd like to add) cuts a lot of time. also provides more than what we need. for example, i have presentation that have 3 columns: english, coptic and arabic. hos erof have taken those and replaced the english with dutch (as i rmemeber). may also replace the arabic with another language. what i am trying to show is the time is used to do this is a lot less than the time spend on the process of a book. also the ease of correcting mistakes must be taken in account here.
I have been working on a 2 books for over 3 yrs (this is the fourth)....and they are no way near done. but i still have ppts that can be used in church for now till the book done.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10187.msg124612#msg124612 date=1292400512] I am not sure why you want a show of hands.
Hi Fr. Peter,
Come on.. i was adding a bit humour - of course u cannot show hands on a forum.
I wanted to know who was for and who was against.. that's all. Is it OK to be sociable a bit during a conversation and see who agrees and who doesn't? I find that information interesting.
Unfortunately, all Bible readings are done in Flemish or Arabic, so i have no other choice but to read a translation. Reading it before the mass doesn't serve much purpose as during the mass, I'm standing aloof anyway without understanding anything. I don't think God wants that.
In fact, because last week I was following the Bible on my iPhone, I remembered the Bible passages very well (thanks to my iphone). In fact, after the mass, I was approached by a fellow Coptic Christian who had a personal problem. I quickly took out my iPhone and showed him the passage that I HAD JUST READ in the mass earlier on that day. That passage was SO RELEVANT to his particular problem.
He was so thankful.
I would not have been in that position to assist a fellow Copt, had I not used the iPhone app, nor had it with me, nor had I just read the Bible before hand (the day before) and came into Church without my iPhone.
If you are concerned about whether you should use it or not then do as I have suggested and speak to your own spiritual father and follow his advice.
I asked a colleague of work "excuse me, i'm looking for the person that sits there.. have you seen him?"
He responded and said "Am I his bodyguard? Why should I know where he is ?? I'm not responsible for him".
Are you related to this man in anyway?
As my mother often said, 'If everyone was jumping off a cliff would you follow them?!'. So it doesn't really matter if everyone here said to do something. It could still be wrong.
Fear not, I can assure you, I'm not dumb - I can discern between what is beneficial for me and what is not. However, I'm interested in public opinion - how such an act of using an iPhone in Church is seen.
What's the point of public surveys? If someone carried out a public survey and found 50% of the population are women, it doesn't mean that you should have a sex change and be a woman because 1 out of EVERY 2 persons is a woman!! Its just general information to show that women aren't a minority.
I am very pleased that this thread has opened up into a wider consideration of technology in the liturgy.
:) That's why I opened the thread! I think you are beginning to see the benefits of the question!!
Hos Erof, and others, I would be interested in having some sense of what problems the technology is thought to solve.
In most Orthodox Churches I have been to, of various ethnicities, there is usually a service book given out at the door, and collected afterwards. If people are STEALING them then surely that is a moral issue that the priest and deacons should deal with? If children are DESTROYING them then surely that also is a moral issue that the priest and deacons should deal with?
Well, we don't have this. And even if there were English Bibles in this Church, how would I know what the Bible readings are during the Bible reading? ALSO.. we were given a HUGE lecture on how not to make noise when turning pages in the Psalmody and Bible in Church. So, technology solves this. The iphone makes no noise when reading passages.
I would have thought that in earlier centuries and millenia there was not a need for books in any case? What is needed is attention? Does a member of the congregation need to see and read the deacons parts of the litanies? Or simply to attend, to listen, and to respond? In other Orthodox services I have attended it is the deacons and priests who particularly need a book, but I have not seen so many where all of the congregation had to have a book as well.
This is where you are wrong.
We were taught that we are meant to pray with the priest.. and even in some parts SAY what he is saying and the deacon! (in some parts!). Singing is not only for deacons. Its for the entire congregation.
There's a fraction where the priest says "For my sake, you endured the shame of spitting, for my sake you bore my nature and blessed my nature in you..." - THIS IS NOT JUST FOR THE PRIEST'S SAKE!! Yet the tense in that fraction is in the 1st person "For MY sake" - but each one of us is meant to say that WITH the priest! You pray with the priest! If the priest is chanting this in Arabic - you need to pray it with him in English (or in any language u can!).
Do the congregation not know the Lord's Prayer, the Creed, and many other fixed parts of the services? Is it NECESSARY to follow the words rather than follow the flow and participate in the prayers? There are times, such as baptisms, when I have wanted to print out the entire text and hand it to people and my bishop has said, people don't need to follow all the words, that will just distract them from following the service. And to a great extent that is true. If the part of the laity is to pray Kyrie Eleison, Our Father, the Creed etc then they don't need to see everyone else's parts, they will hear them in due course if they pay attention, and indeed with a 20 page booklet for a baptism they may well be turning pages, wondering how much longer this is going to go on for etc etc.
Father Peter
I disagree with this Bishop. People need to understand EXACTLY the words. They need to pray with understanding at all points during prayer. Distraction occurs when there is NO understanding in what you are witnessing.
Have you ever attended a play in a foreign language?? You see people acting on stage, and yet you don't understand a word of it? Those that do understand are reacting to every part of the play, yet your experience of the same play is reduced to only admiring what is going on superficially. You are not engaged in the play, but you are just an idle witness of it.
This is NOT right.
See. I don't need a priest to tell me that. Fear not!
I just wanted to know HOW reading an iPhone ebook could be interpreted by people in a Church. That's all.
I guess I thank God that we are not in the same Church, nor with Mina, nor with ILSM: I'd have been judged and condemned throughout my entire Christian experience with you.
Whenever I disagree with you you seem to take it as a personal insult.
Why is it wrong for me to suggest that you speak to your own spiritual father? You do not agree with my opinion, so I am not sure what else to suggest to you.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10187.msg124618#msg124618 date=1292404126] Zoxasi, what is the problem?
Whenever I disagree with you you seem to take it as a personal insult.
Why is it wrong for me to suggest that you speak to your own spiritual father? You do not agree with my opinion, so I am not sure what else to suggest to you.
Father Peter
What makes you think I have a problem? lol
Who said I feel insulted? Not at all. I'm glad you responded, that way we can correct some of the incorrect things being posted - I fear that some readers on here will not be able to distinguish between your opinion (because you're a priest), and what is correct for them.
Its good to highlight (in my opinion). But I'm not upset.
If you are open to being corrected that what your Bishop told you is wrong, then I'd be OK. But to go and state something from a Bishop that is clearly incorrect, is not wise.
its not smart.
We should be praying AND following with the priest during the liturgy.
You are not a user of Tasbeha.org - YOU ARE A PRIEST AND AN ADMIN (!!)
Its worrying that you have the authority to state things that are spiritually incorrect, and then when challenged, you ask "What is your problem".
Zoxasi, I don't think you have followed my posts. I have consistently argued that there should be attention in the liturgy. I have never said that the laity should not attend to the deacons and priests contributions - indeed I have insisted that they should. But I am not convinced that technology, or even having a nose in a book accomplishes this.
For the majority of the history of the Church the people have not had service books. They listened carefully. And at times the deacon would even say 'Pay attention - Let us attend'.
So I cannot agree with your criticism. I was concelebrating with my bishop yesterday and I did not follow in the book everything he prayed. Instead I followed by listening to him with attention. Just as our ancestors would have done. And when my own deacons are praying the litanies I don't read the book but I pay attention to what they are saying.
If I was going to see a Shakespeare play I would not best appreciate it by sitting in the audience reading the play in a book. I would best appreciate it by watching and listening carefully.
As I have said several times, this does not apply to a situation where a person is in a completely foreign language situation.
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10187.msg124621#msg124621 date=1292408684] Zoxasi, I don't think you have followed my posts. I have consistently argued that there should be attention in the liturgy. I have never said that the laity should not attend to the deacons and priests contributions - indeed I have insisted that they should. But I am not convinced that technology, or even having a nose in a book accomplishes this.
For the majority of the history of the Church the people have not had service books. They listened carefully. And at times the deacon would even say 'Pay attention - Let us attend'.
So I cannot agree with your criticism. I was concelebrating with my bishop yesterday and I did not follow in the book everything he prayed. Instead I followed by listening to him with attention. Just as our ancestors would have done. And when my own deacons are praying the litanies I don't read the book but I pay attention to what they are saying.
If I was going to see a Shakespeare play I would not best appreciate it by sitting in the audience reading the play in a book. I would best appreciate it by watching and listening carefully.
As I have said several times, this does not apply to a situation where a person is in a completely foreign language situation.
Father Peter
OK.. that's cool then!
So, I can use my iPhone! :) YAY!
But i feel we are arguing for nothing then, because if you are listening attentively, then you too MUST be praying with your Bishop when he is praying. Right?
You must be saying the same words as he is saying in your heart whilst he is saying them.
If that is the case, all well and good. If you are just listening and not praying the same words, then I have a problem with this.
The sacrament of Communion and the liturgy is not just an act that we witness, but we are part of it. We are the living members in the living body of Christ. We are part of the same act. We are participants in the mass not just witnesses of it. Salvation is not just for the priest, but for the entire congregation.
Sorry to post that late, but better late than never. I can't agree more with Fr. Peter, ilovesaintmark, TITL, and minagir, and whoever else follows their teachings. That has always been my opinion for generations, and no body seemed to have listened until Fr. Peter said it.. yeah? Do you see I was right then?... no just joking. Use of technology is not appropriate in our church. Use of kholagies and psalmodies is not ideal (ideally we should always have prepared and learnt all the hymns by heart before coming to church, which may sometimes be difficult for midnight praises "tasbeha") but otherwise we should all be doing one and only thing, especially during the Liturgy = FIXING OUR EYES ON OUR SAVIOUR ON THE ALTAR. I used to take a small Bible with me to the church to follow the readings along, and one of the older deacons I remember gestured to me not to use them again, and better be placing my body with my back to the altar to focus on the Word of God being read. Now that is interesting, but it seems the order of the Liturgy originally dictated that the Lamb would only be offered after the Gospel reading, and sermon finish, and the non-believers (catechumens ? can't remember the expression) leave the church, but it is not the same now. However, I still do this, focus on the Word of God being read out, not at a hand-held Bible, or any other phone for that matter. What did projectors do to our church? Served as a distraction. Yes they did. Served as a translation material for the new-comers? Yes they did. But you know what? I think the latter can be done without, as ilovesaintmark rightly said, for 2000 years this church has been so strong, and even more Christians used to learn passages from the Bible, whole passages if not even whole chapters without making use of either books or projectors. I will stretch my argument further to one extreme and say: can we record the cathedral sermon (or the whole liturgy) and put huge screens in our churches during feasts, for people to follow along, and end by partaking from the Communion?!! How is that going to be wrong?!! [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
We are talking about using Technology for ONE specific application: Where there are no English Bibles in a mass that it is 100% in Arabic.
That's it.
Fr. Peter clarified his statement saying that this (his opinion) MAY NOT apply to a situation where the worshipper is in a foreign language where they cannot understand what is being prayed.
Now, I just wanted who agreed/who disagreed.
For me personally, I think using it in the above application is fine - so long as that is ALL i'm doing. Yes, if the there was an app that had the entire liturgy in English, I'd have used it throughout the liturgy to understand the Coptic and the Arabic. That's it.
ilovesaintmark suggested that you bring your Bible from home. Or do you also use an app at home? Do you use an app when praying from the agpeya? How about when you do matanias.. does an app count them for you? And when you sing Kyrie Eleison, is there an app that makes sure you don't go above 41? I guess you should also get the app that leads you not into temptation but delivers you from evil.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10187.msg124628#msg124628 date=1292417516] ilovesaintmark suggested that you bring your Bible from home. Or do you also use an app at home?
Yes, I use an app at home also for reading the Bible. Its easier and I can write notes on it.
Do you use an app when praying from the agpeya?
Unfortunately, the agpeya section in the iPhone app is not that good, so I prefer a book. But if it was good, why not use it? What's the diffference between holding an iPhone with the Agpeya on it and an Agpeya?? You're reading the same thing!!
How about when you do matanias.. does an app count them for you? And when you sing Kyrie Eleison, is there an app that makes sure you don't go above 41?
I think now you're being sarcastic...
I guess you should also get the app that leads you not into temptation but delivers you from evil.
You're obviously attacking me for my question - but I fail to see what the difference is between literature on a paper book, and the SAME literature on an electronic LCD screen. What's the difference??
I went to a Church in Italy once and it had electronic candles. You put money in, you press a button, and the candle lights up. That is not what I'm talking about.
I'm just asking about using an iPhone to follow the Bible readings when they are in a different language to what you understand. That's all.
There's no need for the sarcastic comments. I find it very abusive actually.
Ok Doxsasi I see your point. If for that specific reason, that you MAY, but I personally would DISAGREE still. In most if not all of our churches in the diaspora, older as well as younger generations have a grasp of both Arabic, and the language they serve in. Therefore I don't see why not we encourage our youths to be discipled to follow along with the readings in whatever language they are in. In fact, I don't need to remind you or anyone else, how many British people (as my understanding you come often to Britain) sing praises in Arabic with the congregation, because it was easy for them to learn them, and translate them in their minds from Arabic to English. After all, it is just moving your mouths, but the spirit is still praying to God, and God knows it very well, and commends whatever we do, even if illogical for some, to keep the order in the church, and follow what we have been taught. [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=10187.msg124631#msg124631 date=1292418265] Ok Doxsasi I see your point. If for that specific reason, that you MAY, but I personally would DISAGREE still. In most if not all of our churches in the diaspora, older as well as younger generations have a grasp of both Arabic, and the language they serve in. Therefore I don't see why not we encourage our youths to be discipled to follow along with the readings in whatever language they are in. In fact, I don't need to remind you or anyone else, how many British people (as my understanding you come often to Britain) sing praises in Arabic with the congregation, because it was easy for them to learn them, and translate them in their minds from Arabic to English. After all, it is just moving your mouths, but the spirit is still praying to God, and God knows it very well, and commends whatever we do, even if illogical for some, to keep the order in the church, and follow what we have been taught. [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Oh my goodness!!!!!
There's a HUGE difference between arabic praises and Bible readings!! I don't know the Bible readings off by heart. I may have heard the story ONCE before, but that's it.
There are MANY new comers in the Church that don't speak Arabic. What should they do during the Bible reading?
What's wrong with you all??!! You're all fanatical!! Eh da!!!!!!!
But other people pointed out that your leading an example in church, so I still think you should bring your Bible from home.. and I guess use the app when you're reading alone at home.
It's just a strange thought for me how we can use apps for our spiritual lives. It's like reading my daily Bible readings from biblegateway.com... it makes me uncomfortable. I don't like how the same machine that I use for chatting, wasting time, reading funny stuff is the one I read the Word of God. It deserves all due respect, honor, and FEAR. Isn't this like the spring our Lord mentioned that shouldn't bring both bitter and sweet water?
But other people pointed out that your leading an example in church,
AM I PLAYING GAMES ON MY PHONE IN CHURCH!!!! Did i not use the same iPhone app to tell someone something from the Bible that was good for him!??? Is that NOT a good example!!!!!!
so I still think you should bring your Bible from home.. and I guess use the app when you're reading alone at home.
I use the Bible on my iPhone because it has all my notes on it.
It's just a strange thought for me how we can use apps for our spiritual lives.
What's wrong with you!?? Fr. Peter even admitted that he ended up as an Orthodox Christian THANKS TO BOOKS! Books!! These books that he had access to should be on every single format possible.. not just paper.
What is the difference between reading something on hardcopy and on electronic format?? WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?? TELL ME!!??
Aren't the words the same??
I benefitted greatly from His Holiness Books that i read online!! I benefited greatly from sermons i heard that were in MP3 format... I never attended them personally. I benefited greatly from books I read online that helped me grow spiritually.
ALL OF THESE were in electronic format.
It's like reading my daily Bible readings from biblegateway.com... it makes me uncomfortable. I don't like how the same machine that I use for chatting, wasting time, reading funny stuff is the one I read the Word of God.
When I read the Bible from a machine that people use to chat and waste time, IT MAKES ME NEVER TO USE IT FOR CHATTING AND WASTING TIME!!!
Also, you should not live a double life. You can't go to Church and pray and act holy and then go to a PC afterwards and chat and waste time! You should be the same person wherever you go - Live in the Truth!
It deserves all due respect, honor, and FEAR. Isn't this like the spring our Lord mentioned that shouldn't bring both bitter and sweet water?
Yes.. that's good point (at last).. and i feel that my ONLY problem is people like you, who see me reading on my iphone in Church, judge me.. they don't know that i'm zealous to hear and listen to God's words and understand EVERYTHING!
I am very interested in researching how our ancestors worshipped during the liturgy.
As far as I can see from some preliminary reading (and I am sure others here know the exact details) the first printed service books were not created until the very late 19th century. Before that all service books were hand-written and would have been rare outside of the Church. One document I accessed said that the Synaxarium, for instance, was only ever found in the Church. Therefore in the past centuries it would not have been normal for believers to follow the service with a book, or even to have read the Synaxarium for themselves. The participation in the Liturgy would have been by way of hearing with attention.
I am interested in understanding how much of the service a devout person would have learned by heart? It seems to me that cantors would have known those hymns they sang and taught by heart - just as many Protestants, as I did, know many hymns and songs by heart. I imagine that many servants and priests would also have tended to know much of the liturgy by heart as well - just as even someone doing amateur dramatics can learn a play by heart, and just as many English children in Victorian times would learn long poems off by heart.
As far as I am aware, the Ethiopian Church culture highly values the memorisation of Scripture, hymns, liturgics and prayers, as well as theological works of the Fathers. I note that there is also a historical tradition in the Coptic Orthodox Church of memorising. Is there not a saying "memorise the Psalms, and you will be protected by the Psalms". And it is written...
"There shall be no-one in the monastery who does not learn to read, and does not memorise something of the Scriptures. One should learn by heart at least the New Testament and the Psalter".
Despite my great laziness and weakness I have learned the Hour of Prime by heart so that I can pray it wherever I am. If I were not so foolish I would have made the effort to learn each of the Hours, or at least Noon and Vespers. I can remember many pop and rock songs, but I have not taken the time to learn the Psalms by heart.
I guess my thought is, since we seem to be a lot less able to concentrate on the Liturgy, and less able to make the effort to memorise the hymns and prayers, does this technological equipment assist in such concentration or is it making it worse? How is it that the oldest men in my own Evangelical congregation knew great chunks of the Bible heart, while my own generation knew hardly any, even though we had the benefit of computers, video, CDs etc etc?
This is not a criticism of anyone. But is a reflection on my own weak efforts. I do not need more effort saving devices. I need to make more effort. I do not need to avoid the effort of learning our holy and spiritual texts, I need to engage with them so that they are part of my inner treasure. When there were the Western hostages being held in Beirut I used to wonder how I would survive, and how much of the Scriptures etc I would be able to remember. Not very much I am afraid. I need to do better in this coming year.
Thanks Fr. Peter, I hope that neither you nor Zoxsasi misunderstood me when I talked about believers memorising passages of the Holy Bible. I didn't mean that they did that in order to attend the liturgy without any access to books, or Synexarium for that matter. I was talking about a general concept and how that was applied to the Liturgy during those times. The saying "memorise psalms and you will be protected by psalms" as I believe is a saying Pope Cyril the VI used to utter. Not sure if it has any ancestral origins. As for memorising the hymns, that is very true. In the Coptic Orthodox Church, cantors used to learn the hymns by heart and recite the longer ones only through Braille-printed books, as they didn't want to lose the fluency of singing a 27-minute hymn or longer, but other than that, you didn't need to hold a book to your hand to recite the deacons' or congregation responses. That said, I am not entirely sure about priests' parts, but I have an inkling they were similar if not THE SAME. [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Can someone kindly tell me the difference between a Paper Book with the Bible on it, and a device with an LCD screen (retina display) with the same Book on it ??
Why is one more acceptable than the other in Church??
Ophadece, I wasn't picking up on anything critical.
I just think that it is good to memorise our texts AND that our ancestors generally did not have books and therefore relied on memory and on attention.
I do know that many of the priest's parts were not written down and were only orally transmitted.
A Bible is a sacred and holy object. It is sanctified by prayer and devotion. Many people will never put another book on top of a Bible. The words contained in it transform it into a means of grace. It is an icon.
The difference between a Bible (which means book) and an LCD screen is the difference between a true icon of our Lord, and showing a picture of an icon on a TV. The second is not an icon at all. It does not have the possibility of being transformed into an icon, because an icon is more than colours on a screen. It is a sacred and holy object.
An LCD cannot be a Bible. It can only show the words of the Bible. A Bible is a sacred and holy object and it communicates the holiness and grace of God in more than a written and intellectual communication. A Bible is not simply the words of Scripture. Just as an icon is not simply paint and wood, and a hand cross is not just metal formed into a particular shape.
This is why the book of the Katamarous is censed during the liturgy. It is holy itself.
To be given the Bible of an elderly Orthodox who has lived a life of prayer and devotion is a great gift. Yet it contains the same words as a brand new Bible from a shop. The old Bible has absorbed decades of holiness and grace and has become a spiritual object. The Bible is more than words. This is why the text of the Bible in a computer programme is not the same at all.
Comments
i would say no because as a deacon you are the example people look up to.
best thing to do is just read and/or mediate on all readings before church
OK..what if Im not dressed as a deacon. What if I stand quietly at the back of the Church going through the iCoptic App during the Bible reading so I can understand what is being read??
is that OK?
Can I have a simple YES or NO?
especially with God...I think he would rather you understand something instead of just standing there...and dont wory what ppl think of you.
Our abounas approve of it.
& again... I DEF SAY ITS OK :)
if you know that the readings are always going to be in arabic than simply read them before liturgy.....which we are actually supposed to do to gain the most out of liturgical readings. there is a reason that there is ONLINE KATAMEROS...the bible is online...there is a reason i spend that much time to prepare and have that much liturgical text online.....not for you to print them out and take them to church ONLY but to actually REAd and UNdertand them before they are done in church. things that happen in church sometime pass so fast that we don't comprehend everything we do.
Your first paragraph is a very profound insight into the aspect of temptation; well stated.
Can I just have a show of hands ??
All those FOR it (i.e. reading your iCoptic App, whilst standing/sitting at the BACK OF THE CHURCH, during the Bible Readings in Church) Say YES (JUST YES)...and those AGAINST IT say NO (JUST NO).
It seems to me that those against it want me to read the Bible passages before going into the Church... OK..but when the Bible is being read, I'm STILL not going to be following / understanding a single word of it.
Secondly, I don't have a synaxarium at home.
Minagir - i think I made it clear that its ONLY on AIRPLANE MODE...so..no internet access nothing.
No checking email...
Of course, checking email during the Bible reading is STUPID..I won't even be tempted to do that. However, I will always open my Bible app IF EVER a verse is being read where I may want to understand it more.
That's All.
Please - just respond with a simple YES or NO (don't give explanations).
Please respond with a simple YES or NO!!
THanks
If you are concerned about whether you should use it or not then do as I have suggested and speak to your own spiritual father and follow his advice. As my mother often said, 'If everyone was jumping off a cliff would you follow them?!'. So it doesn't really matter if everyone here said to do something. It could still be wrong.
I am very pleased that this thread has opened up into a wider consideration of technology in the liturgy.
Hos Erof, and others, I would be interested in having some sense of what problems the technology is thought to solve.
In most Orthodox Churches I have been to, of various ethnicities, there is usually a service book given out at the door, and collected afterwards. If people are STEALING them then surely that is a moral issue that the priest and deacons should deal with? If children are DESTROYING them then surely that also is a moral issue that the priest and deacons should deal with?
I would have thought that in earlier centuries and millenia there was not a need for books in any case? What is needed is attention? Does a member of the congregation need to see and read the deacons parts of the litanies? Or simply to attend, to listen, and to respond? In other Orthodox services I have attended it is the deacons and priests who particularly need a book, but I have not seen so many where all of the congregation had to have a book as well.
Do the congregation not know the Lord's Prayer, the Creed, and many other fixed parts of the services? Is it NECESSARY to follow the words rather than follow the flow and participate in the prayers? There are times, such as baptisms, when I have wanted to print out the entire text and hand it to people and my bishop has said, people don't need to follow all the words, that will just distract them from following the service. And to a great extent that is true. If the part of the laity is to pray Kyrie Eleison, Our Father, the Creed etc then they don't need to see everyone else's parts, they will hear them in due course if they pay attention, and indeed with a 20 page booklet for a baptism they may well be turning pages, wondering how much longer this is going to go on for etc etc.
Father Peter
Hos Erof, and others, I would be interested in having some sense of what problems the technology is thought to solve.
i think i can speak a little for Hos Erof since i did/am work/ing with him in many of these things.
On our case, being outside egypt, we speak different languages. In the states we only have to deal with one language: English....that's why we have much more translation of texts (liturgy with all it's yearly hymns, tasbeha, prayers..etc) in english than any other language because there are that much of us who do work on it. when you get to Europe, you have to deal with many other languages: French, Polish, dutch (which hos erof mainly speaks)...etc.
After translating, you than have to deal with reviewing then more reviewing and the last process is printing the books. that takes a LOT OF TIME....i guess also money. i can give an example: the Southern diocese lead by HGB Youssef have been working on a "deacon's servants" book for more than i can remember.....maybe 10 yrs. and i think they JUST printed it....and it is still not being sold. even though, from the screen shots of the book that i have seen, i am actually not happy with it--i just expect a perfect book that will be used by generations to come (like cantor Farag book for example which was published many yrs before i was born and is still the best book ever).
Now having presentations (and apps if you'd like to add) cuts a lot of time. also provides more than what we need. for example, i have presentation that have 3 columns: english, coptic and arabic. hos erof have taken those and replaced the english with dutch (as i rmemeber). may also replace the arabic with another language. what i am trying to show is the time is used to do this is a lot less than the time spend on the process of a book.
also the ease of correcting mistakes must be taken in account here.
I have been working on a 2 books for over 3 yrs (this is the fourth)....and they are no way near done. but i still have ppts that can be used in church for now till the book done.
I am not sure why you want a show of hands.
Hi Fr. Peter,
Come on.. i was adding a bit humour - of course u cannot show hands on a forum.
I wanted to know who was for and who was against.. that's all. Is it OK to be sociable a bit during a conversation and see who agrees and who doesn't? I find that information interesting.
Unfortunately, all Bible readings are done in Flemish or Arabic, so i have no other choice but to read a translation. Reading it before the mass doesn't serve much purpose as during the mass, I'm standing aloof anyway without understanding anything. I don't think God wants that.
In fact, because last week I was following the Bible on my iPhone, I remembered the Bible passages very well (thanks to my iphone). In fact, after the mass, I was approached by a fellow Coptic Christian who had a personal problem. I quickly took out my iPhone and showed him the passage that I HAD JUST READ in the mass earlier on that day. That passage was SO RELEVANT to his particular problem.
He was so thankful.
I would not have been in that position to assist a fellow Copt, had I not used the iPhone app, nor had it with me, nor had I just read the Bible before hand (the day before) and came into Church without my iPhone. I asked a colleague of work "excuse me, i'm looking for the person that sits there.. have you seen him?"
He responded and said "Am I his bodyguard? Why should I know where he is ?? I'm not responsible for him".
Are you related to this man in anyway? Fear not, I can assure you, I'm not dumb - I can discern between what is beneficial for me and what is not. However, I'm interested in public opinion - how such an act of using an iPhone in Church is seen.
What's the point of public surveys? If someone carried out a public survey and found 50% of the population are women, it doesn't mean that you should have a sex change and be a woman because 1 out of EVERY 2 persons is a woman!! Its just general information to show that women aren't a minority. :) That's why I opened the thread! I think you are beginning to see the benefits of the question!! Well, we don't have this. And even if there were English Bibles in this Church, how would I know what the Bible readings are during the Bible reading? ALSO.. we were given a HUGE lecture on how not to make noise when turning pages in the Psalmody and Bible in Church.
So, technology solves this. The iphone makes no noise when reading passages. This is where you are wrong.
We were taught that we are meant to pray with the priest.. and even in some parts SAY what he is saying and the deacon! (in some parts!). Singing is not only for deacons. Its for the entire congregation.
There's a fraction where the priest says "For my sake, you endured the shame of spitting, for my sake you bore my nature and blessed my nature in you..." - THIS IS NOT JUST FOR THE PRIEST'S SAKE!! Yet the tense in that fraction is in the 1st person "For MY sake" - but each one of us is meant to say that WITH the priest! You pray with the priest! If the priest is chanting this in Arabic - you need to pray it with him in English (or in any language u can!). I disagree with this Bishop. People need to understand EXACTLY the words. They need to pray with understanding at all points during prayer. Distraction occurs when there is NO understanding in what you are witnessing.
Have you ever attended a play in a foreign language?? You see people acting on stage, and yet you don't understand a word of it? Those that do understand are reacting to every part of the play, yet your experience of the same play is reduced to only admiring what is going on superficially. You are not engaged in the play, but you are just an idle witness of it.
This is NOT right.
See. I don't need a priest to tell me that. Fear not!
I just wanted to know HOW reading an iPhone ebook could be interpreted by people in a Church. That's all.
I guess I thank God that we are not in the same Church, nor with Mina, nor with ILSM: I'd have been judged and condemned throughout my entire Christian experience with you.
Whenever I disagree with you you seem to take it as a personal insult.
Why is it wrong for me to suggest that you speak to your own spiritual father? You do not agree with my opinion, so I am not sure what else to suggest to you.
Father Peter
Zoxasi, what is the problem?
Whenever I disagree with you you seem to take it as a personal insult.
Why is it wrong for me to suggest that you speak to your own spiritual father? You do not agree with my opinion, so I am not sure what else to suggest to you.
Father Peter
What makes you think I have a problem? lol
Who said I feel insulted? Not at all. I'm glad you responded, that way we can correct some of the incorrect things being posted - I fear that some readers on here will not be able to distinguish between your opinion (because you're a priest), and what is correct for them.
Its good to highlight (in my opinion). But I'm not upset.
If you are open to being corrected that what your Bishop told you is wrong, then I'd be OK. But to go and state something from a Bishop that is clearly incorrect, is not wise.
its not smart.
We should be praying AND following with the priest during the liturgy.
You are not a user of Tasbeha.org - YOU ARE A PRIEST AND AN ADMIN (!!)
Its worrying that you have the authority to state things that are spiritually incorrect, and then when challenged, you ask "What is your problem".
For the majority of the history of the Church the people have not had service books. They listened carefully. And at times the deacon would even say 'Pay attention - Let us attend'.
So I cannot agree with your criticism. I was concelebrating with my bishop yesterday and I did not follow in the book everything he prayed. Instead I followed by listening to him with attention. Just as our ancestors would have done. And when my own deacons are praying the litanies I don't read the book but I pay attention to what they are saying.
If I was going to see a Shakespeare play I would not best appreciate it by sitting in the audience reading the play in a book. I would best appreciate it by watching and listening carefully.
As I have said several times, this does not apply to a situation where a person is in a completely foreign language situation.
Father Peter
Zoxasi, I don't think you have followed my posts. I have consistently argued that there should be attention in the liturgy. I have never said that the laity should not attend to the deacons and priests contributions - indeed I have insisted that they should. But I am not convinced that technology, or even having a nose in a book accomplishes this.
For the majority of the history of the Church the people have not had service books. They listened carefully. And at times the deacon would even say 'Pay attention - Let us attend'.
So I cannot agree with your criticism. I was concelebrating with my bishop yesterday and I did not follow in the book everything he prayed. Instead I followed by listening to him with attention. Just as our ancestors would have done. And when my own deacons are praying the litanies I don't read the book but I pay attention to what they are saying.
If I was going to see a Shakespeare play I would not best appreciate it by sitting in the audience reading the play in a book. I would best appreciate it by watching and listening carefully.
As I have said several times, this does not apply to a situation where a person is in a completely foreign language situation.
Father Peter
OK.. that's cool then!
So, I can use my iPhone! :) YAY!
But i feel we are arguing for nothing then, because if you are listening attentively, then you too MUST be praying with your Bishop when he is praying. Right?
You must be saying the same words as he is saying in your heart whilst he is saying them.
If that is the case, all well and good. If you are just listening and not praying the same words, then I have a problem with this.
The sacrament of Communion and the liturgy is not just an act that we witness, but we are part of it. We are the living members in the living body of Christ. We are part of the same act. We are participants in the mass not just witnesses of it. Salvation is not just for the priest, but for the entire congregation.
I can't agree more with Fr. Peter, ilovesaintmark, TITL, and minagir, and whoever else follows their teachings.
That has always been my opinion for generations, and no body seemed to have listened until Fr. Peter said it.. yeah? Do you see I was right then?... no just joking.
Use of technology is not appropriate in our church. Use of kholagies and psalmodies is not ideal (ideally we should always have prepared and learnt all the hymns by heart before coming to church, which may sometimes be difficult for midnight praises "tasbeha") but otherwise we should all be doing one and only thing, especially during the Liturgy = FIXING OUR EYES ON OUR SAVIOUR ON THE ALTAR.
I used to take a small Bible with me to the church to follow the readings along, and one of the older deacons I remember gestured to me not to use them again, and better be placing my body with my back to the altar to focus on the Word of God being read. Now that is interesting, but it seems the order of the Liturgy originally dictated that the Lamb would only be offered after the Gospel reading, and sermon finish, and the non-believers (catechumens ? can't remember the expression) leave the church, but it is not the same now. However, I still do this, focus on the Word of God being read out, not at a hand-held Bible, or any other phone for that matter.
What did projectors do to our church? Served as a distraction. Yes they did. Served as a translation material for the new-comers? Yes they did. But you know what? I think the latter can be done without, as ilovesaintmark rightly said, for 2000 years this church has been so strong, and even more Christians used to learn passages from the Bible, whole passages if not even whole chapters without making use of either books or projectors.
I will stretch my argument further to one extreme and say: can we record the cathedral sermon (or the whole liturgy) and put huge screens in our churches during feasts, for people to follow along, and end by partaking from the Communion?!! How is that going to be wrong?!!
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
We are talking about using Technology for ONE specific application: Where there are no English Bibles in a mass that it is 100% in Arabic.
That's it.
Fr. Peter clarified his statement saying that this (his opinion) MAY NOT apply to a situation where the worshipper is in a foreign language where they cannot understand what is being prayed.
Now, I just wanted who agreed/who disagreed.
For me personally, I think using it in the above application is fine - so long as that is ALL i'm doing. Yes, if the there was an app that had the entire liturgy in English, I'd have used it throughout the liturgy to understand the Coptic and the Arabic. That's it.
ilovesaintmark suggested that you bring your Bible from home. Or do you also use an app at home?
Yes, I use an app at home also for reading the Bible. Its easier and I can write notes on it. Unfortunately, the agpeya section in the iPhone app is not that good, so I prefer a book. But if it was good, why not use it? What's the diffference between holding an iPhone with the Agpeya on it and an Agpeya?? You're reading the same thing!! I think now you're being sarcastic... You're obviously attacking me for my question - but I fail to see what the difference is between literature on a paper book, and the SAME literature on an electronic LCD screen. What's the difference??
I went to a Church in Italy once and it had electronic candles. You put money in, you press a button, and the candle lights up. That is not what I'm talking about.
I'm just asking about using an iPhone to follow the Bible readings when they are in a different language to what you understand. That's all.
There's no need for the sarcastic comments. I find it very abusive actually.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Ok Doxsasi I see your point. If for that specific reason, that you MAY, but I personally would DISAGREE still. In most if not all of our churches in the diaspora, older as well as younger generations have a grasp of both Arabic, and the language they serve in. Therefore I don't see why not we encourage our youths to be discipled to follow along with the readings in whatever language they are in. In fact, I don't need to remind you or anyone else, how many British people (as my understanding you come often to Britain) sing praises in Arabic with the congregation, because it was easy for them to learn them, and translate them in their minds from Arabic to English. After all, it is just moving your mouths, but the spirit is still praying to God, and God knows it very well, and commends whatever we do, even if illogical for some, to keep the order in the church, and follow what we have been taught.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Oh my goodness!!!!!
There's a HUGE difference between arabic praises and Bible readings!! I don't know the Bible readings off by heart. I may have heard the story ONCE before, but that's it.
There are MANY new comers in the Church that don't speak Arabic. What should they do during the Bible reading?
What's wrong with you all??!! You're all fanatical!! Eh da!!!!!!!
Its reaching the point of stupidity.
But other people pointed out that your leading an example in church, so I still think you should bring your Bible from home.. and I guess use the app when you're reading alone at home.
It's just a strange thought for me how we can use apps for our spiritual lives. It's like reading my daily Bible readings from biblegateway.com... it makes me uncomfortable. I don't like how the same machine that I use for chatting, wasting time, reading funny stuff is the one I read the Word of God. It deserves all due respect, honor, and FEAR.
Isn't this like the spring our Lord mentioned that shouldn't bring both bitter and sweet water?
I'm sorry Thoxsasi.
But other people pointed out that your leading an example in church,
AM I PLAYING GAMES ON MY PHONE IN CHURCH!!!!
Did i not use the same iPhone app to tell someone something from the Bible that was good for him!???
Is that NOT a good example!!!!!! I use the Bible on my iPhone because it has all my notes on it. What's wrong with you!?? Fr. Peter even admitted that he ended up as an Orthodox Christian THANKS TO BOOKS! Books!!
These books that he had access to should be on every single format possible.. not just paper.
What is the difference between reading something on hardcopy and on electronic format?? WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?? TELL ME!!??
Aren't the words the same??
I benefitted greatly from His Holiness Books that i read online!!
I benefited greatly from sermons i heard that were in MP3 format... I never attended them personally.
I benefited greatly from books I read online that helped me grow spiritually.
ALL OF THESE were in electronic format. When I read the Bible from a machine that people use to chat and waste time, IT MAKES ME NEVER TO USE IT FOR CHATTING AND WASTING TIME!!!
Also, you should not live a double life. You can't go to Church and pray and act holy and then go to a PC afterwards and chat and waste time! You should be the same person wherever you go - Live in the Truth! Yes.. that's good point (at last).. and i feel that my ONLY problem is people like you, who see me reading on my iphone in Church, judge me.. they don't know that i'm zealous to hear and listen to God's words and understand EVERYTHING!
Gosh!!!!!!!
You're all fanatical.
Ehh dah.. this is sick
I am very interested in researching how our ancestors worshipped during the liturgy.
As far as I can see from some preliminary reading (and I am sure others here know the exact details) the first printed service books were not created until the very late 19th century. Before that all service books were hand-written and would have been rare outside of the Church. One document I accessed said that the Synaxarium, for instance, was only ever found in the Church. Therefore in the past centuries it would not have been normal for believers to follow the service with a book, or even to have read the Synaxarium for themselves. The participation in the Liturgy would have been by way of hearing with attention.
I am interested in understanding how much of the service a devout person would have learned by heart? It seems to me that cantors would have known those hymns they sang and taught by heart - just as many Protestants, as I did, know many hymns and songs by heart. I imagine that many servants and priests would also have tended to know much of the liturgy by heart as well - just as even someone doing amateur dramatics can learn a play by heart, and just as many English children in Victorian times would learn long poems off by heart.
As far as I am aware, the Ethiopian Church culture highly values the memorisation of Scripture, hymns, liturgics and prayers, as well as theological works of the Fathers. I note that there is also a historical tradition in the Coptic Orthodox Church of memorising. Is there not a saying "memorise the Psalms, and you will be protected by the Psalms". And it is written...
"There shall be no-one in the monastery who does not learn to read, and does not memorise something of the Scriptures. One should learn by heart at least the New Testament and the Psalter".
Despite my great laziness and weakness I have learned the Hour of Prime by heart so that I can pray it wherever I am. If I were not so foolish I would have made the effort to learn each of the Hours, or at least Noon and Vespers. I can remember many pop and rock songs, but I have not taken the time to learn the Psalms by heart.
I guess my thought is, since we seem to be a lot less able to concentrate on the Liturgy, and less able to make the effort to memorise the hymns and prayers, does this technological equipment assist in such concentration or is it making it worse? How is it that the oldest men in my own Evangelical congregation knew great chunks of the Bible heart, while my own generation knew hardly any, even though we had the benefit of computers, video, CDs etc etc?
This is not a criticism of anyone. But is a reflection on my own weak efforts. I do not need more effort saving devices. I need to make more effort. I do not need to avoid the effort of learning our holy and spiritual texts, I need to engage with them so that they are part of my inner treasure. When there were the Western hostages being held in Beirut I used to wonder how I would survive, and how much of the Scriptures etc I would be able to remember. Not very much I am afraid. I need to do better in this coming year.
Father Peter
In fact, there's a very good way to memorize the Psalms and the Bible using the iPhone. If anyone is interested, please PM me.
I hope that neither you nor Zoxsasi misunderstood me when I talked about believers memorising passages of the Holy Bible. I didn't mean that they did that in order to attend the liturgy without any access to books, or Synexarium for that matter. I was talking about a general concept and how that was applied to the Liturgy during those times.
The saying "memorise psalms and you will be protected by psalms" as I believe is a saying Pope Cyril the VI used to utter. Not sure if it has any ancestral origins.
As for memorising the hymns, that is very true. In the Coptic Orthodox Church, cantors used to learn the hymns by heart and recite the longer ones only through Braille-printed books, as they didn't want to lose the fluency of singing a 27-minute hymn or longer, but other than that, you didn't need to hold a book to your hand to recite the deacons' or congregation responses. That said, I am not entirely sure about priests' parts, but I have an inkling they were similar if not THE SAME.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Why is one more acceptable than the other in Church??
I just think that it is good to memorise our texts AND that our ancestors generally did not have books and therefore relied on memory and on attention.
I do know that many of the priest's parts were not written down and were only orally transmitted.
Father Peter
The difference between a Bible (which means book) and an LCD screen is the difference between a true icon of our Lord, and showing a picture of an icon on a TV. The second is not an icon at all. It does not have the possibility of being transformed into an icon, because an icon is more than colours on a screen. It is a sacred and holy object.
An LCD cannot be a Bible. It can only show the words of the Bible. A Bible is a sacred and holy object and it communicates the holiness and grace of God in more than a written and intellectual communication. A Bible is not simply the words of Scripture. Just as an icon is not simply paint and wood, and a hand cross is not just metal formed into a particular shape.
This is why the book of the Katamarous is censed during the liturgy. It is holy itself.
To be given the Bible of an elderly Orthodox who has lived a life of prayer and devotion is a great gift. Yet it contains the same words as a brand new Bible from a shop. The old Bible has absorbed decades of holiness and grace and has become a spiritual object. The Bible is more than words. This is why the text of the Bible in a computer programme is not the same at all.
Father Peter
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]