[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10187.msg124641#msg124641 date=1292425568] A Bible is a sacred and holy object. It is sanctified by prayer and devotion. Many people will never put another book on top of a Bible. The words contained in it transform it into a means of grace. It is an icon.
The difference between a Bible (which means book) and an LCD screen is the difference between a true icon of our Lord, and showing a picture of an icon on a TV. The second is not an icon at all. It does not have the possibility of being transformed into an icon, because an icon is more than colours on a screen. It is a sacred and holy object.
An LCD cannot be a Bible. It can only show the words of the Bible. A Bible is a sacred and holy object and it communicates the holiness and grace of God in more than a written and intellectual communication. A Bible is not simply the words of Scripture. Just as an icon is not simply paint and wood, and a hand cross is not just metal formed into a particular shape.
This is why the book of the Katamarous is censed during the liturgy. It is holy itself.
To be given the Bible of an elderly Orthodox who has lived a life of prayer and devotion is a great gift. Yet it contains the same words as a brand new Bible from a shop. The old Bible has absorbed decades of holiness and grace and has become a spiritual object. The Bible is more than words. This is why the text of the Bible in a computer programme is not the same at all.
Father Peter
That's a good answer..
But why doesn't that make my iPhone Holy? What if I had an iPhone DEDICATED to my Bible?
AM I PLAYING GAMES ON MY PHONE IN CHURCH!!!! Did i not use the same iPhone app to tell someone something from the Bible that was good for him!??? Is that NOT a good example!!!!!!
How do the children know you're not using it to play games or text? When I see someone in church using a phone, I assume they're texting or playing tap tap. You've made it clear (several times) that you're merely using the phone to read the Bible, and unless you tell EVERYONE in church what you're doing, no one will know.
You still haven't answered my question: why can't you bring your Bible from home?
When I read the Bible from a machine that people use to chat and waste time, IT MAKES ME NEVER TO USE IT FOR CHATTING AND WASTING TIME!!!
You don't use your iPhone to chat? That's very strange..
What is the difference between reading something on hardcopy and on electronic format?? WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?? TELL ME!!??
Bidoon narfaza, please. The difference between using a hardcopy book and electronic is, as I mentioned before, one only contains the Word of God and one contains everything in this world (both sin and good) with the Word of God. A Bible is sacred. An iPhone is not.
Yes.. that's good point (at last).. and i feel that my ONLY problem is people like you, who see me reading on my iphone in Church, judge me.. they don't know that i'm zealous to hear and listen to God's words and understand EVERYTHING!
I'm not judging you, Uncle. I'm sorry for my sarcasm. I'll try to be more serious with your posts.
I just read Fr. Peter's response. I agree with every word. I'd like to re-quote his entire post, just to make it clear that we have the same opinion:
A Bible is a sacred and holy object. It is sanctified by prayer and devotion. Many people will never put another book on top of a Bible. The words contained in it transform it into a means of grace. It is an icon.
The difference between a Bible (which means book) and an LCD screen is the difference between a true icon of our Lord, and showing a picture of an icon on a TV. The second is not an icon at all. It does not have the possibility of being transformed into an icon, because an icon is more than colours on a screen. It is a sacred and holy object.
An LCD cannot be a Bible. It can only show the words of the Bible. A Bible is a sacred and holy object and it communicates the holiness and grace of God in more than a written and intellectual communication. A Bible is not simply the words of Scripture. Just as an icon is not simply paint and wood, and a hand cross is not just metal formed into a particular shape.
This is why the book of the Katamarous is censed during the liturgy. It is holy itself.
To be given the Bible of an elderly Orthodox who has lived a life of prayer and devotion is a great gift. Yet it contains the same words as a brand new Bible from a shop. The old Bible has absorbed decades of holiness and grace and has become a spiritual object. The Bible is more than words. This is why the text of the Bible in a computer programme is not the same at all.
I'm sure my post really has no relevance at this point, but I would like to say I can see the argument for both cases...That being said, my opinion is that the projector being added for the purpose of people following along was the worst addition to the liturgy since the arab conquest. I hate it. It is a source of very much distraction. People say it helps them follow along but I fail to understand how following a long on a projector is easier than simply flipping the pages in a book(if you MUST follow along)? And as others have said during the readings(with the exception of special circumstances such as Zoxasi) There is no reason for a projector or an ipod/ipad or any other I-item. This is only the tip of the iceburg, I have much more to say on this subject but I will leave it at this for now.
[quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10187.msg124649#msg124649 date=1292432192] I'm sure my post really has no relevance at this point, but I would like to say I can see the argument for both cases...That being said, my opinion is that the projector being added for the purpose of people following along was the worst addition to the liturgy since the arab conquest. I hate it. It is a source of very much distraction. People say it helps them follow along but I fail to understand how following a long on a projector is easier than simply flipping the pages in a book(if you MUST follow along)? And as others have said during the readings(with the exception of special circumstances such as Zoxasi) There is no reason for a projector or an ipod/ipad or any other I-item. This is only the tip of the iceburg, I have much more to say on this subject but I will leave it at this for now.
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
Thanks JY,
I really don't like the use of technology in a Church to the point it becomes a distraction. Projectors do just that. I hate them also.
I'm a simple guy and I wanted to follow the Bible readings - that's all. If I was living in an English speaking country, or a country where I understood the Bible being read, I wouldn't use the iPhone. Its that simple.
I really can't pray in Stevenage.. i don't know why. The entire cathedral is a distraction. The light coming in is so bright.. I just don't feel that intimacy in Saint George's Cathedral at all.
I prefer the small more quieter churches.
Stevenage is packed with high tech. Its everywhere. It has its own private network and sound system, and I cannot even hear the a word from anything being said due to the echo problem there.
JYDeacon: I hate being in a Church and feeling that I just heard something, or I just sang something that I didnt understand. IT BOTHERS ME TO DEATH!!
I hate it.
The projector changes the atmosphere of a Church into a school, or a concert hall.
However, a personal e-book in your hands is not that all... its quiet, its discrete, and it actually helps you concentrate on the readings.
I don't see a problem with it.
OK.. let's take an example of where I would use it.
a) Let's say we're in Apocolypse period - and i'm asked to read the Bible. I notice that the book (like always) is in Olde English - and not even KJV. I would not hesitate to bring out my iPhone and read from there... not one bit!
b) Let's say we were deacons.. and someone asked me to read the Bible in English, and they didn't have or know the right passage to read for me.. Rather than waste time fumbling through pages.. I'd take out my iCoptic App and just read it from there.
c) If the synaxarium is in Arabic, I'd read it from the iPhone app.
But.. this is PERSONAL.. what I do should not really affect anyone else in the Church.
If a child sees me and wants to copy me - then frankly speaking, GREAT!! He/She would also be reading the Bible rather than staring at me during the Bible readings!!
I just want to say that I could have honestly understood it if SOMEONE, ANYONE (!!!) had said :
"well, zoxsasi, to be honest with you, the Church is a place where we want to leave and forget for a bit the worldly things, and focus on the spiritual things... and not be surrounded by technology that we work with day-in, day-out... we want to liberate and just give our minds a rest from that"..
This, I could agree with.. but no one said that.
But what am I to do if I want to understand the Holy Mass in a foreign language??
And then if this is how you feel (as i stated above), but you didn't know how to express yourself, then the question remains: what if I don't have a problem with technology in the Church? What if I don't mind using a phone to help me pray? Surely if its personal, it shouldn't distract you?
That's why I agree with JY : a projector is very distracting. For those that don't need it, nor use it, its as if youre imposing it on them.
Next time you post a question, also post the answer you want to hear. We'll be sure to copy and paste it as our response instead of stating our opinions.
I don't think you understand the meaning of a forum. You're not always going to hear what you want to hear. Please be open minded to the opinion of others.
I have read your replies to Fr. Peter's posts in this thread, and I'm very upset with the tone you used with him. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean you can argue to the point of being rude. We will not always take sides with you. Hopefully, one day, you can accept that.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10187.msg124659#msg124659 date=1292441026] Next time you post a question, also post the answer you want to hear. We'll be sure to copy and paste it as our response instead of stating our opinions.
I don't think you understand the meaning of a forum. You're not always going to hear what you want to hear. Please be open minded to the opinion of others.
I have read your replies to Fr. Peter's posts in this thread, and I'm very upset with the tone you used with him. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean you can argue to the point of being rude. We will not always take sides with you. Hopefully, one day, you can accept that.
Yeah, please post something also that makes sense and isn't fanatical also if you want people to take you seriously.
I guess that whatever you all said was so illogical and fanatical, that it just didn't make sense. The only thing that makes any sense whatsoever why u shouldn't have technology in a Church is what I've stated above. Other than that, you all come across as a bit Jihadist.
Now, if it were a BLACKBERRY, I don't think anyone would have any problems.
Zoxsasi,
I reeeeally want to turn this around and call youuuu a fanatic, but I'm going to act mature, take a deep breath, and ask you to forgive me for being "illogical, fanatical, and making no sense". I hope Childoforthodoxy and Father Peter are happy. That was really hard for me to say.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10187.msg124664#msg124664 date=1292443965] Now, if it were a BLACKBERRY, I don't think anyone would have any problems.
Zoxsasi,
I reeeeally want to turn this around and call youuuu a fanatic, but I'm going to act mature, take a deep breath, and ask you to forgive me for being "illogical, fanatical, and making no sense". I hope Childoforthodoxy and Father Peter are happy. That was really hard for me to say.
Why am i fanatical? I don't like technology in church either... it ruins the spirit of a place of worship.. but, if you actually NEED it to help you worship in the first place - OK.. do it - WITHIN REASON!!
But when I hear people say "No.. take your Bibles with you to Church" , and "read the bible before going to Church" - I don't think this is moderate thinking. Its fanatical.
BlackBerry is for secure emailing and web surfing.. why would u want to take that to Church for?
my 2p (that's british for cents!) 2 much technology means some people are showing off what cool gagets they have and others are distracted thinking 'i wish i had a phone that was not as big as a brick' or simply 'i wish i had a phone'. having books, and teaching people to cherish them (it can be done!) is better.
however, i am personally in favour of projectors coz it took me MORE THAN A YEAR to figure out how to work out what page of the kholagy we are on, it's really difficult for new-comers without a projector. i actually learnt my way around the kholagy coz i would read it randomly in the frequent long parts of the service where i was totally lost and couldn't understand the priest or deacon's arabic/coptic/thick accent when speaking english. that was before projectors were used so much. it wasn't all bad, i made a close friend because i sat next to her in a crowded church once and realised she was slightly more lost than i was! i helped her out and then she helped me!
the british orthodox church has a really small, easy to follow liturgy book, so i agree that there is not a need for a projector there. while in the coptic church the priest will often flit between the 3 liturgies, and u have to actually be able to recognise which liturgy he is reading (i.e know all 3 well enough to recognise them in 3 languages) in order to follow this in a book. :o
however u do not need a whole team and a dedicated room to have a projector. nor do u need the latest, most expensive huge screen. in the 3 coptic churches in the uk i know best, there is just 1 person (does not have to be a deacon, maybe can be a member who is good at knowing the liturgy and ideally has some 'inside information' about which liturgies we will be praying) clicking 1 button on 1 computer that is connected to the projector. if the church is big, u can have additional small screens down the sides, so u don't need a huge, icon-hiding mega-screen at the front. in the 'old days' before projectors, people weren't emmigrating to far-away parts of the world and worshipping in a language foreign to the natives of that country. now we have invented aeroplanes, we need projectors as well ;)
It seems that we are not using technology in Church for the wrong reasons:
* Because others will get jealous * Because others think you are playing * Because others will follow your example * Because others will get upset
I'm not in anyway suggesting that we all bring in our iPhones to Church from now on, but in a situation where there are NO books and where all the readings are in a foreign language, having it on an iPhone and reading it quietly seems logical.
What's really annoying - what makes my blood boil in all this conversation, is not only the lame reasons I've read, but people don't seem to care if you understand what is being said in Church - they only care if you look respectable and if you "look" as if you've understood the readings.
What kind of attitude is that?
To me, this is beyond foolishness, it verging on hypocrisy and fanatism.
As I said, the ONLY reason, after brainstorming, that I could think of that was logical for NOT using an iPhone in Church, was that you needed time in Church to forget about these things (gadgets, IT, Internet) - everything that we are surrounded by and just focus on the hymns and liturgy.
I would agree 1100000% with that. My only problem is that I didn't understand a word from ANY of the Bible readings, so anything I had to help me understand would have been useful.
I asked the question hoping to see different points of view and reasons why one should not use an iPhone during the Bible readings, but not plain outright fanatism.
I think that you raise an interesting set of points.
Projectors have been introduced because of other perceived practical problems. It is my personal opinion that these other practical problems should be resolved rather than relying on technology, because technology tends to take over for its own sake.
i. The liturgy book we use in the British Orthodox Church is designed to be easy to use. The length of the liturgy is no shorter than the Coptic since we use the ancient Liturgy of St James. But it was edited so that a person could walk in and follow the liturgy. We do not include every possible text and prayer that could ever be used since this confuses people. We present the standard, usual liturgy. I don't see a reason why an established Coptic congregation would not have an established liturgy with variable parts. We have a liturgy book for the congregation, and a liturgy book for the deacons and priests. These are different because it is the job of the priest and deacons to know what texts are following which texts, and it should not be a matter of confusion for the faithful.
There is, for instance, no need to have every possible fraction in the congregational service book if the priest only ever uses one or two. And if he is going to use a different one this could easily be printed in the handout for the liturgy. Likewise there is no need for every possible doxology to be in a congregation service book, just the usual ones, with particular ones, especially ones not used often, in the handout for the liturgy.
ii. If I were in a congregation where the priest was randomly switching from liturgy to liturgy I would surely ask that he stop so that people COULD more easily follow what was happening. Why are there three Coptic liturgies if a priest can pick and choose bits from whatever he wants? That doesn't make sense. There are three liturgies because they are different and should be prayed with integrity surely?
iii. The priest may well have a thick accent, but if there is a simplified liturgy book and he is only following one liturgy at a time then visitors should not get lost.
iv. A visitor should not be left to struggle through the liturgy. So the solution is surely to have people whose ministry is to assist visitors rather than have a projector? Again, if the priest is switching from liturgy to liturgy then I would guess that this is not ideal.
v. It also seems to me that our Churches should consider the printed materials we have available and ask if they are suitable for the congregation, and for visitors. It is not at all difficult to produce professionally printed books. It is not difficult to produce liturgy books that are simple to use and do not confuse people who use them. I have attended Indian Orthodox services for instance, where the service books are slim and manage to accomodate both English and Malayalam.
It would be good for us to imagine ourselves as visitors to our congregations and try to think through the issues that people might have. In the case of Zoxasi in Belgium, it would not be difficult to produce a multi-lingual edition of most of the liturgy in Flemish, English and Arabic. It is only three columns of text, and the English translation of the liturgy is already available. It would only be a cut and paste exercise. And the handout for the liturgy could contain the text of the lections and the synaxarium in English on an English version of the handout, French on a French version if necessary etc etc.
This makes me aware of the various ethnicities of those who visit my own Church and worship with us, and makes me wonder whether in the new year this is something we should also do since there are some who cannot follow the lections and the sermon in English. Perhaps even have a brief summary of the sermon translated into their languages and printed on the handout?
Of course ideally the language of the liturgy and the language of those who worship will be resolved over time and will become the native language of the place where the Church is. If I had moved to Finland, as I might have done in the past, I would have expected to learn Finnish better than I already had (I could cope in Finnish, hotels, taxis, restaurants etc. It always seems rude to me to visit a country and not attempt to speak their language even badly). And I would have expected to worship with Finnish people in Finnish. Of course I fully appreciate the necessary pastoral demands of supporting an immigrant community who are not fluent in the host language. But at some point Egyptian Coptic Orthodox must become American Coptic Orthodox and British Coptic Orthodox and engage with the new culture and society. When and where that takes place many of the reasons for having projector screens will disappear. But my concern is that the projectors will not, because even though the reason for having them might have been considered justified, when the reason disappears the habit of having projectors will remain.
But, my greater concern is the videoing and recording of every service. I can understand entirely the homily being recorded, but otherwise it seems to me to change the relationship to the liturgy in a negative manner, from participating to spectating. And this is one reason I have resisted recording my own liturgy. You can only truly participate by being here with me. I would wish it were otherwise, but this is what is required. We participate together in communion in Christ, but to share in THIS liturgy you have to be here, otherwise you are watching the equivalent of a news broadcast. And do I want lots of people saying 'Why did he do that?', 'Why didn't he do that?', 'I like this bit, let's watch it again', 'I don't like this bit, lets skip over it'.
I hope I don't come across as negative. I am just not happy with some developments. There have always been priests with bad accents, who pick and choose bits from various services, and the full collection of service material has always been large. But this has not required projectors in the past. Most of the liturgy - if we stick to one at a time - is fairly standard, certainly compared to those liturgical traditions where almost everything is always variable. We need to look at why there are problems and try and solve the root cause rather than only the symptoms.
Dear mabsoota and Father Peter, Your points are very relevant, and even though there are some disagreements, but I tend to agree more with what Fr. Peter says. Specifically speaking about flitting from one Liturgy to another. I would argue that priests want to pray, and they want to lift their own hearts up with prayers, in front of the Bantokrator, hence the flitting between liturgies, which as Fr. Peter rightly said is not ideal, if not even divisive. In my opinion, that shouldn't happen, exactly as the fact that deacons can choose any hymn on any occasion to sing it on another occasion, or for example sing some tasbeha praises hymns during Communion! WRONG. However, please do understand that as Fr. Peter is alluding to, projectors and technology are superfluous and don't solve anything. That has never been the practice in Egypt, and in addition, churches in Egypt do not have plenty of kholagy books, or even agbeyas, and people get their own if the want to follow. The thing is, I never prayed in one church where the congregation were guided to follow along with announcing the pages (like what happen here in the UK), or explaining to the people that today abouna is praying Gregorian or Cyrilian rather than Basilian. In fact, I would argue that is wrong if it happens. Simply because there is some structure to when you pray using some tune, some hymns, or some anaphora's, but praying does have a rhythm and depth to it as well. I have seen deacons leaving the altar to go and see the projector screen: is it on? Is the brightness OK? And so on... that is not ideal if not even wrong. Unfortuantely, today in Egypt, many churches adopted the same concept and there are projectors in churches. Instead of wasting the money on those, we could have given a little bit extra to the poor (and trust it is not just a little bit in Egypt's money). Again I am saying these are superfluous materials. It is not like the church's pillars, or foundations, but ... we are in the 21st century, aren't we? [coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Since this is at its heart a linguistic issue, I would like to share with you all two quotes on the nature of language in the liturgy from the book Journey Back to Eden: My Life and Times among the Desert Fathers by Mark Gruber (O.S.B.), a book by a Dominican Roman Catholic priest who studied at a few Coptic Orthodox monasteries with the blessing of HH Pope Shenouda III. My own comments will follow.
Pope Shenouda was particularly joyous today. He invited me into the sanctuary and asked to borrow my English Bible so that he could read one or two of the passages from it on behalf of the English-speaking prelates who are present as guests. He told me once that he likes to use English in the Coptic ritual, since there is nothing in particular about the Arabic language that is essential to Coptic ritual. He said that if it is not being read in Coptic, the language of the ancient Pharaohs, it may just as well be read in English. I wonder whether he is content to use a language other than the language of the Koran because, of course, the Koran has so completely formed the Arabic language. He did not say this, nor would he be likely to say so if asked. Nevertheless, Arabic is essential to Islam and only peripheral to Coptic Christianity.
+ + +
Most of the employees of the monastery are very young. To see them studying and memorizing their Coptic prayers reminds me of my earliest memories in the Roman Church, when the language of preference was still Latin. These unlettered villagers pray in a language they do not understand, and yet it seems to nourish them completely.
There are Coptic people who object, just as Catholics objected, to praying in a language which they do not understand. But the Coptic monks are insisting, and so apparently is the hierarchy of this Church, that understanding the words of a prayer is the least important part of the meaning and the value of the prayer. The monks remind me that “the Spirit intercedes for us with groans too deep for words" (cf. Romans 8:26) and, therefore, when you are groaning, when you are arching, when you are too tired to participate intellectually in the psalmody, you are still praying. The Holy Spirit is unlocking the depths of that which lies within. Sometimes when the mind is fully engaged and thinking in its own terms and categories, it will not release the inward soul to discourse with God. Sometimes the mind must work itself through its desire to control and come to a kind of humility, a relaxation of its powers, so that the Spirit might work at deeper currents than those which the mind employs. So I think of the words of the Psalmist: “Like a weaned child on its mother’s lap, so is my soul within me.” (Psalm 131:2)
Personally, as someone who is very carefully looking into Coptic Orthodoxy with the idea of potentially converting if it is someday possible to do so (where I live right now there is no C.O.C.; the local Oriental Orthodox, mainly Eritreans and Ethiopians, go to a nearby Russian Orthodox parish), I must say without prejudice toward anyone who holds a different opinion that I agree with the posts of Fr. Peter and others who hold the same line.
I do not speak Arabic very well (I only took one year in college, and am not from an Arabic-speaking country or community), so I would probably struggle very much in an Arabic-speaking environment. Just the same, I must honestly say that I do not see this as a reason to rely on anything else than the printed word of the scripture and the liturgy, which is to be memorized to any degree you can. I must confess to you, Coptic people, that I am jealous. I am jealous of you and your beautiful church and its holy liturgies and traditions. I, as a non-Orthodox and non-Copt living far away from any community, took it upon myself some time ago to deal with my jealousy by buying a trilingual Coptic/Arabic/English book of the Liturgy of St. Basil. This is what I read, first in English so that I will understand, then in Arabic for practice and preparation for what I might hear in a Coptic Church, then in Coptic for the same reasons and out of reverence for the ancient and pure Coptic tradition as it was before the Arabs came and the Copts lost their language. I realize that since I am not a member of the Church and cannot attend liturgy, this is in many ways a very poor substitute. But I think that given the circumstances it is a good system. While I read the liturgy more or less at random (the psalms, the doxologies, etc. with no real comprehension of the order of the liturgy), I still absorb the praises and the holy words. And, YES, before I start and when I finish I do kiss the liturgy book, just as I kiss the Bible when I read it! ;) I would personally feel a bit silly kissing my phone, but then I am the type of person who is not yet completely comfortable with text messages, let alone all the things an IPhone can do (I don't own one, so I don't know).
My only point is that from an outsiders perspective, the Coptic traditions and liturgies, even though they are mystical and hard to follow, are such irreplaceable treasures that there is no barrier that should keep the person who is challenged by them from learning them. Since it is obviously not part of the traditions to learn using the phone (or projectors), I would personally prefer to learn the traditional way as part and parcel of learning the traditions themselves. They have inherent value even though they may seem cumbersome in today's world.
DEAr all, WOuld you please pay very close attention to what dzheremi said? He's a non-Copt who is jealous of the Coptic traditions, and zealous to learn the deep in meaning liturgies (with their associated Coptic hymns I infer) without needing projectors or smart phones. I'll definitely quote you dzheremi in my posts if you wouldn't mind. Thanks a lot
I would be honored to be quoted by you, Ophadece, or anyone who finds my perspective helpful. Really, it is an honor that I don't deserve. Thank you.
Yes, I try to learn the Coptic hymns, too. It is easier for me to read the Coptic than the Arabic, since I already speak Russian so the Greek-derived Coptic alphabet is quite easy for me compared to the unvoweled Arabic script. But I try to read all three. It helps. I feel blessed that God has given me the ability to do so, even if I struggle a bit along the way.
I'm the one honoured here dzheremi. In fact the opinions you gave along with Fr. Peter's insight serve to strengthen my argument 1000 times especially coming from members not originally belonging to the Coptic Orthodox Church. You may have realised already that I voiced my opinions before but every time I get some bashing by other Copts on this forum until you and Fr. Peter backed me up so thanks a lot. Keep me in your prayers
[quote author=chriskrich878 link=topic=10187.msg124882#msg124882 date=1292670864] I think it's a bad idea to use the phone in Church. This is a place where we should keep ourselves calm. If you want to be closer to God, you need to stay away from the things you like or possess.
look, i just needed a tool to help me understand the Bible Readings.
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=10187.msg124514#msg124514 date=1292364335] I have very mixed feelings about technology in church. Deep down i'd absolutely prefer using books or having the people know the liturgy by heart. However, we run into some practical problems. First of all, a lot of people don't take any books with them, so they may end up distracted or not participating. We noticed in our church a HUGE difference during the Midnight praises when there's a .ppt or not. Second, placing books / small booklets in church for people to use doesnt work with egyptians for some reason. Kids tear the books in pieces, people take them home and forget them next time, books fall, it's just not practical (at least, not from what I see around). Third, a lot of people are not familiair with the changes in rites during special occasions and its difficult to carry 3 or 4 books and flip through the pages to keep up with everything (at least, for the average person).colon cleansesteriodsI'm wondering myself why things have worked for 2000 years without all this technology, and why all these issues I mentioned (and other) are such obstacles nowadays. I really wish to have technology-free services, but we need some wisdom to fix practical issues. Any takers?
HG Bishop Youssef uses an ipad, which has his notes on it, to give his sermons during church services
HG Bishop Youssef uses an ipad, which has his notes on it, to give his sermons during church services
Did he think that whilst he's using his iPAD that someone COULD think he's playing games on it DURING the sermon? Maybe he's going through the BBC News app on the iPAD whilst giving the sermon, and we don't even know.
[quote author=alsoforum link=topic=10187.msg125127#msg125127 date=1293007399] [quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=10187.msg124514#msg124514 date=1292364335] I have very mixed feelings about technology in church. Deep down i'd absolutely prefer using books or having the people know the liturgy by heart. However, we run into some practical problems. First of all, a lot of people don't take any books with them, so they may end up distracted or not participating. We noticed in our church a HUGE difference during the Midnight praises when there's a .ppt or not. Second, placing books / small booklets in church for people to use doesnt work with egyptians for some reason. Kids tear the books in pieces, people take them home and forget them next time, books fall, it's just not practical (at least, not from what I see around). Third, a lot of people are not familiair with the changes in rites during special occasions and its difficult to carry 3 or 4 books and flip through the pages to keep up with everything (at least, for the average person).colon cleansesteriodsI'm wondering myself why things have worked for 2000 years without all this technology, and why all these issues I mentioned (and other) are such obstacles nowadays. I really wish to have technology-free services, but we need some wisdom to fix practical issues. Any takers?
HG Bishop Youssef uses an ipad, which has his notes on it, to give his sermons during church services
oh...forget the ipad.....long ago, when there wasn't much touch phones and the Palm phone was most famous, he used to have one and in his lectures and ordinations he used simply becuase he always had access to translations no one else have.....which is one of the main reasons we support such use of technology. as you just said, he uses ipad for his lecture notes....not for liturgy (even thoo it'll be a great duplicate of the book) and for EVERYTHING ELSE!! we have to consider our action in context here.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10187.msg125156#msg125156 date=1293039282] Abouna Isidores from the Abbey in Texas uses his iPad to read hazzats during tasbeha lol.
HE NOW HAVE AN IPAD!!!!! omg...i am gonna have fun tomorrow when i get there.
[quote author=TITL link=topic=10187.msg125156#msg125156 date=1293039282] Abouna Isidores from the Abbey in Texas uses his iPad to read hazzats during tasbeha lol.
So why the heck am I being attacked for if there are monks and priests using it for their worship??
Dear Zoxsasi, You weren't being attacked. You started this thread looking for opinions and people started giving you theirs in their own style which I don't blame you if sometimes they came across is patronizing, at least I hope mine weren't... Secondly, we don't believe in the infallibility of higher ranks including bishops and popes. And for me those couple of cases quoted earlier are not something to go by still. I would rather they used those devices privately not publicly for whatever season, but I may only be viewed as an old-fashioned fanatic... pretty much on Fr. Peter's stance...
The US Congress has a ban on these devices, which may be lifted in the new Congress of January 2011. The ban relates to the temptation and time occupation of impertinent issues during congressional sessions.
if you think about it, the cost of those massive 50 inch displays could buy you enough books for an entire congregation. and when you have a book in your hand, you feel more connected to the liturgy (liturgy=work of the people). i find that reading off a screen is very impersonal. (plus i get very bored when my hands aren't doing something, just a weird nervous habit, like moving my toes while saying hymns) :)
Comments
A Bible is a sacred and holy object. It is sanctified by prayer and devotion. Many people will never put another book on top of a Bible. The words contained in it transform it into a means of grace. It is an icon.
The difference between a Bible (which means book) and an LCD screen is the difference between a true icon of our Lord, and showing a picture of an icon on a TV. The second is not an icon at all. It does not have the possibility of being transformed into an icon, because an icon is more than colours on a screen. It is a sacred and holy object.
An LCD cannot be a Bible. It can only show the words of the Bible. A Bible is a sacred and holy object and it communicates the holiness and grace of God in more than a written and intellectual communication. A Bible is not simply the words of Scripture. Just as an icon is not simply paint and wood, and a hand cross is not just metal formed into a particular shape.
This is why the book of the Katamarous is censed during the liturgy. It is holy itself.
To be given the Bible of an elderly Orthodox who has lived a life of prayer and devotion is a great gift. Yet it contains the same words as a brand new Bible from a shop. The old Bible has absorbed decades of holiness and grace and has become a spiritual object. The Bible is more than words. This is why the text of the Bible in a computer programme is not the same at all.
Father Peter
That's a good answer..
But why doesn't that make my iPhone Holy?
What if I had an iPhone DEDICATED to my Bible?
What if abouna blessed it??
You've made it clear (several times) that you're merely using the phone to read the Bible, and unless you tell EVERYONE in church what you're doing, no one will know.
You still haven't answered my question: why can't you bring your Bible from home? You don't use your iPhone to chat? That's very strange.. Bidoon narfaza, please.
The difference between using a hardcopy book and electronic is, as I mentioned before, one only contains the Word of God and one contains everything in this world (both sin and good) with the Word of God.
A Bible is sacred. An iPhone is not. I'm not judging you, Uncle. I'm sorry for my sarcasm. I'll try to be more serious with your posts.
I just thought an app for matanias was funny. :)
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
I'm sure my post really has no relevance at this point, but I would like to say I can see the argument for both cases...That being said, my opinion is that the projector being added for the purpose of people following along was the worst addition to the liturgy since the arab conquest. I hate it. It is a source of very much distraction. People say it helps them follow along but I fail to understand how following a long on a projector is easier than simply flipping the pages in a book(if you MUST follow along)? And as others have said during the readings(with the exception of special circumstances such as Zoxasi) There is no reason for a projector or an ipod/ipad or any other I-item. This is only the tip of the iceburg, I have much more to say on this subject but I will leave it at this for now.
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
Thanks JY,
I really don't like the use of technology in a Church to the point it becomes a distraction. Projectors do just that. I hate them also.
I'm a simple guy and I wanted to follow the Bible readings - that's all. If I was living in an English speaking country, or a country where I understood the Bible being read, I wouldn't use the iPhone. Its that simple.
I really can't pray in Stevenage.. i don't know why. The entire cathedral is a distraction. The light coming in is so bright.. I just don't feel that intimacy in Saint George's Cathedral at all.
I prefer the small more quieter churches.
Stevenage is packed with high tech. Its everywhere. It has its own private network and sound system, and I cannot even hear the a word from anything being said due to the echo problem there.
JYDeacon: I hate being in a Church and feeling that I just heard something, or I just sang something that I didnt understand. IT BOTHERS ME TO DEATH!!
I hate it.
The projector changes the atmosphere of a Church into a school, or a concert hall.
However, a personal e-book in your hands is not that all... its quiet, its discrete, and it actually helps you concentrate on the readings.
I don't see a problem with it.
OK.. let's take an example of where I would use it.
a) Let's say we're in Apocolypse period - and i'm asked to read the Bible.
I notice that the book (like always) is in Olde English - and not even KJV.
I would not hesitate to bring out my iPhone and read from there... not one bit!
b) Let's say we were deacons.. and someone asked me to read the Bible in English, and they didn't have or know the right passage to read for me.. Rather than waste time fumbling through pages.. I'd take out my iCoptic App and just read it from there.
c) If the synaxarium is in Arabic, I'd read it from the iPhone app.
But.. this is PERSONAL.. what I do should not really affect anyone else in the Church.
If a child sees me and wants to copy me - then frankly speaking, GREAT!! He/She would also be reading the Bible rather than staring at me during the Bible readings!!
"well, zoxsasi, to be honest with you, the Church is a place where we want to leave and forget for a bit the worldly things, and focus on the spiritual things... and not be surrounded by technology that we work with day-in, day-out... we want to liberate and just give our minds a rest from that"..
This, I could agree with.. but no one said that.
But what am I to do if I want to understand the Holy Mass in a foreign language??
And then if this is how you feel (as i stated above), but you didn't know how to express yourself, then the question remains: what if I don't have a problem with technology in the Church? What if I don't mind using a phone to help me pray? Surely if its personal, it shouldn't distract you?
That's why I agree with JY : a projector is very distracting. For those that don't need it, nor use it, its as if youre imposing it on them.
I don't think you understand the meaning of a forum. You're not always going to hear what you want to hear. Please be open minded to the opinion of others.
I have read your replies to Fr. Peter's posts in this thread, and I'm very upset with the tone you used with him. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean you can argue to the point of being rude. We will not always take sides with you. Hopefully, one day, you can accept that.
Next time you post a question, also post the answer you want to hear. We'll be sure to copy and paste it as our response instead of stating our opinions.
I don't think you understand the meaning of a forum. You're not always going to hear what you want to hear. Please be open minded to the opinion of others.
I have read your replies to Fr. Peter's posts in this thread, and I'm very upset with the tone you used with him. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean you can argue to the point of being rude. We will not always take sides with you. Hopefully, one day, you can accept that.
Yeah, please post something also that makes sense and isn't fanatical also if you want people to take you seriously.
I guess that whatever you all said was so illogical and fanatical, that it just didn't make sense. The only thing that makes any sense whatsoever why u shouldn't have technology in a Church is what I've stated above. Other than that, you all come across as a bit Jihadist.
I wonder, will I get the same responses as you?
Zoxsasi,
I reeeeally want to turn this around and call youuuu a fanatic, but I'm going to act mature, take a deep breath, and ask you to forgive me for being "illogical, fanatical, and making no sense".
I hope Childoforthodoxy and Father Peter are happy. That was really hard for me to say.
Now, if it were a BLACKBERRY, I don't think anyone would have any problems.
Zoxsasi,
I reeeeally want to turn this around and call youuuu a fanatic, but I'm going to act mature, take a deep breath, and ask you to forgive me for being "illogical, fanatical, and making no sense".
I hope Childoforthodoxy and Father Peter are happy. That was really hard for me to say.
Why am i fanatical? I don't like technology in church either... it ruins the spirit of a place of worship.. but, if you actually NEED it to help you worship in the first place - OK.. do it - WITHIN REASON!!
But when I hear people say "No.. take your Bibles with you to Church" , and "read the bible before going to Church" - I don't think this is moderate thinking. Its fanatical.
BlackBerry is for secure emailing and web surfing.. why would u want to take that to Church for?
2 much technology means some people are showing off what cool gagets they have and others are distracted thinking 'i wish i had a phone that was not as big as a brick' or simply 'i wish i had a phone'. having books, and teaching people to cherish them (it can be done!) is better.
however, i am personally in favour of projectors coz it took me MORE THAN A YEAR to figure out how to work out what page of the kholagy we are on, it's really difficult for new-comers without a projector. i actually learnt my way around the kholagy coz i would read it randomly in the frequent long parts of the service where i was totally lost and couldn't understand the priest or deacon's arabic/coptic/thick accent when speaking english. that was before projectors were used so much. it wasn't all bad, i made a close friend because i sat next to her in a crowded church once and realised she was slightly more lost than i was! i helped her out and then she helped me!
the british orthodox church has a really small, easy to follow liturgy book, so i agree that there is not a need for a projector there. while in the coptic church the priest will often flit between the 3 liturgies, and u have to actually be able to recognise which liturgy he is reading (i.e know all 3 well enough to recognise them in 3 languages) in order to follow this in a book. :o
however u do not need a whole team and a dedicated room to have a projector. nor do u need the latest, most expensive huge screen. in the 3 coptic churches in the uk i know best, there is just 1 person (does not have to be a deacon, maybe can be a member who is good at knowing the liturgy and ideally has some 'inside information' about which liturgies we will be praying) clicking 1 button on 1 computer that is connected to the projector. if the church is big, u can have additional small screens down the sides, so u don't need a huge, icon-hiding mega-screen at the front.
in the 'old days' before projectors, people weren't emmigrating to far-away parts of the world and worshipping in a language foreign to the natives of that country. now we have invented aeroplanes, we need projectors as well ;)
It seems that we are not using technology in Church for the wrong reasons:
* Because others will get jealous
* Because others think you are playing
* Because others will follow your example
* Because others will get upset
I'm not in anyway suggesting that we all bring in our iPhones to Church from now on, but in a situation where there are NO books and where all the readings are in a foreign language, having it on an iPhone and reading it quietly seems logical.
What's really annoying - what makes my blood boil in all this conversation, is not only the lame reasons I've read, but people don't seem to care if you understand what is being said in Church - they only care if you look respectable and if you "look" as if you've understood the readings.
What kind of attitude is that?
To me, this is beyond foolishness, it verging on hypocrisy and fanatism.
As I said, the ONLY reason, after brainstorming, that I could think of that was logical for NOT using an iPhone in Church, was that you needed time in Church to forget about these things (gadgets, IT, Internet) - everything that we are surrounded by and just focus on the hymns and liturgy.
I would agree 1100000% with that. My only problem is that I didn't understand a word from ANY of the Bible readings, so anything I had to help me understand would have been useful.
I asked the question hoping to see different points of view and reasons why one should not use an iPhone during the Bible readings, but not plain outright fanatism.
I think that you raise an interesting set of points.
Projectors have been introduced because of other perceived practical problems. It is my personal opinion that these other practical problems should be resolved rather than relying on technology, because technology tends to take over for its own sake.
i. The liturgy book we use in the British Orthodox Church is designed to be easy to use. The length of the liturgy is no shorter than the Coptic since we use the ancient Liturgy of St James. But it was edited so that a person could walk in and follow the liturgy. We do not include every possible text and prayer that could ever be used since this confuses people. We present the standard, usual liturgy. I don't see a reason why an established Coptic congregation would not have an established liturgy with variable parts. We have a liturgy book for the congregation, and a liturgy book for the deacons and priests. These are different because it is the job of the priest and deacons to know what texts are following which texts, and it should not be a matter of confusion for the faithful.
There is, for instance, no need to have every possible fraction in the congregational service book if the priest only ever uses one or two. And if he is going to use a different one this could easily be printed in the handout for the liturgy. Likewise there is no need for every possible doxology to be in a congregation service book, just the usual ones, with particular ones, especially ones not used often, in the handout for the liturgy.
ii. If I were in a congregation where the priest was randomly switching from liturgy to liturgy I would surely ask that he stop so that people COULD more easily follow what was happening. Why are there three Coptic liturgies if a priest can pick and choose bits from whatever he wants? That doesn't make sense. There are three liturgies because they are different and should be prayed with integrity surely?
iii. The priest may well have a thick accent, but if there is a simplified liturgy book and he is only following one liturgy at a time then visitors should not get lost.
iv. A visitor should not be left to struggle through the liturgy. So the solution is surely to have people whose ministry is to assist visitors rather than have a projector? Again, if the priest is switching from liturgy to liturgy then I would guess that this is not ideal.
v. It also seems to me that our Churches should consider the printed materials we have available and ask if they are suitable for the congregation, and for visitors. It is not at all difficult to produce professionally printed books. It is not difficult to produce liturgy books that are simple to use and do not confuse people who use them. I have attended Indian Orthodox services for instance, where the service books are slim and manage to accomodate both English and Malayalam.
It would be good for us to imagine ourselves as visitors to our congregations and try to think through the issues that people might have. In the case of Zoxasi in Belgium, it would not be difficult to produce a multi-lingual edition of most of the liturgy in Flemish, English and Arabic. It is only three columns of text, and the English translation of the liturgy is already available. It would only be a cut and paste exercise. And the handout for the liturgy could contain the text of the lections and the synaxarium in English on an English version of the handout, French on a French version if necessary etc etc.
This makes me aware of the various ethnicities of those who visit my own Church and worship with us, and makes me wonder whether in the new year this is something we should also do since there are some who cannot follow the lections and the sermon in English. Perhaps even have a brief summary of the sermon translated into their languages and printed on the handout?
Of course ideally the language of the liturgy and the language of those who worship will be resolved over time and will become the native language of the place where the Church is. If I had moved to Finland, as I might have done in the past, I would have expected to learn Finnish better than I already had (I could cope in Finnish, hotels, taxis, restaurants etc. It always seems rude to me to visit a country and not attempt to speak their language even badly). And I would have expected to worship with Finnish people in Finnish. Of course I fully appreciate the necessary pastoral demands of supporting an immigrant community who are not fluent in the host language. But at some point Egyptian Coptic Orthodox must become American Coptic Orthodox and British Coptic Orthodox and engage with the new culture and society. When and where that takes place many of the reasons for having projector screens will disappear. But my concern is that the projectors will not, because even though the reason for having them might have been considered justified, when the reason disappears the habit of having projectors will remain.
But, my greater concern is the videoing and recording of every service. I can understand entirely the homily being recorded, but otherwise it seems to me to change the relationship to the liturgy in a negative manner, from participating to spectating. And this is one reason I have resisted recording my own liturgy. You can only truly participate by being here with me. I would wish it were otherwise, but this is what is required. We participate together in communion in Christ, but to share in THIS liturgy you have to be here, otherwise you are watching the equivalent of a news broadcast. And do I want lots of people saying 'Why did he do that?', 'Why didn't he do that?', 'I like this bit, let's watch it again', 'I don't like this bit, lets skip over it'.
I hope I don't come across as negative. I am just not happy with some developments. There have always been priests with bad accents, who pick and choose bits from various services, and the full collection of service material has always been large. But this has not required projectors in the past. Most of the liturgy - if we stick to one at a time - is fairly standard, certainly compared to those liturgical traditions where almost everything is always variable. We need to look at why there are problems and try and solve the root cause rather than only the symptoms.
Father Peter
Your points are very relevant, and even though there are some disagreements, but I tend to agree more with what Fr. Peter says. Specifically speaking about flitting from one Liturgy to another. I would argue that priests want to pray, and they want to lift their own hearts up with prayers, in front of the Bantokrator, hence the flitting between liturgies, which as Fr. Peter rightly said is not ideal, if not even divisive. In my opinion, that shouldn't happen, exactly as the fact that deacons can choose any hymn on any occasion to sing it on another occasion, or for example sing some tasbeha praises hymns during Communion! WRONG.
However, please do understand that as Fr. Peter is alluding to, projectors and technology are superfluous and don't solve anything. That has never been the practice in Egypt, and in addition, churches in Egypt do not have plenty of kholagy books, or even agbeyas, and people get their own if the want to follow. The thing is, I never prayed in one church where the congregation were guided to follow along with announcing the pages (like what happen here in the UK), or explaining to the people that today abouna is praying Gregorian or Cyrilian rather than Basilian. In fact, I would argue that is wrong if it happens. Simply because there is some structure to when you pray using some tune, some hymns, or some anaphora's, but praying does have a rhythm and depth to it as well. I have seen deacons leaving the altar to go and see the projector screen: is it on? Is the brightness OK? And so on... that is not ideal if not even wrong.
Unfortuantely, today in Egypt, many churches adopted the same concept and there are projectors in churches. Instead of wasting the money on those, we could have given a little bit extra to the poor (and trust it is not just a little bit in Egypt's money). Again I am saying these are superfluous materials. It is not like the church's pillars, or foundations, but ... we are in the 21st century, aren't we?
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
I do not speak Arabic very well (I only took one year in college, and am not from an Arabic-speaking country or community), so I would probably struggle very much in an Arabic-speaking environment. Just the same, I must honestly say that I do not see this as a reason to rely on anything else than the printed word of the scripture and the liturgy, which is to be memorized to any degree you can. I must confess to you, Coptic people, that I am jealous. I am jealous of you and your beautiful church and its holy liturgies and traditions. I, as a non-Orthodox and non-Copt living far away from any community, took it upon myself some time ago to deal with my jealousy by buying a trilingual Coptic/Arabic/English book of the Liturgy of St. Basil. This is what I read, first in English so that I will understand, then in Arabic for practice and preparation for what I might hear in a Coptic Church, then in Coptic for the same reasons and out of reverence for the ancient and pure Coptic tradition as it was before the Arabs came and the Copts lost their language. I realize that since I am not a member of the Church and cannot attend liturgy, this is in many ways a very poor substitute. But I think that given the circumstances it is a good system. While I read the liturgy more or less at random (the psalms, the doxologies, etc. with no real comprehension of the order of the liturgy), I still absorb the praises and the holy words. And, YES, before I start and when I finish I do kiss the liturgy book, just as I kiss the Bible when I read it! ;) I would personally feel a bit silly kissing my phone, but then I am the type of person who is not yet completely comfortable with text messages, let alone all the things an IPhone can do (I don't own one, so I don't know).
My only point is that from an outsiders perspective, the Coptic traditions and liturgies, even though they are mystical and hard to follow, are such irreplaceable treasures that there is no barrier that should keep the person who is challenged by them from learning them. Since it is obviously not part of the traditions to learn using the phone (or projectors), I would personally prefer to learn the traditional way as part and parcel of learning the traditions themselves. They have inherent value even though they may seem cumbersome in today's world.
WOuld you please pay very close attention to what dzheremi said? He's a non-Copt who is jealous of the Coptic traditions, and zealous to learn the deep in meaning liturgies (with their associated Coptic hymns I infer) without needing projectors or smart phones. I'll definitely quote you dzheremi in my posts if you wouldn't mind. Thanks a lot
Yes, I try to learn the Coptic hymns, too. It is easier for me to read the Coptic than the Arabic, since I already speak Russian so the Greek-derived Coptic alphabet is quite easy for me compared to the unvoweled Arabic script. But I try to read all three. It helps. I feel blessed that God has given me the ability to do so, even if I struggle a bit along the way.
I think it's a bad idea to use the phone in Church. This is a place where we should keep ourselves calm. If you want to be closer to God, you need to stay away from the things you like or possess.
look, i just needed a tool to help me understand the Bible Readings.
I have very mixed feelings about technology in church. Deep down i'd absolutely prefer using books or having the people know the liturgy by heart. However, we run into some practical problems.
First of all, a lot of people don't take any books with them, so they may end up distracted or not participating. We noticed in our church a HUGE difference during the Midnight praises when there's a .ppt or not.
Second, placing books / small booklets in church for people to use doesnt work with egyptians for some reason. Kids tear the books in pieces, people take them home and forget them next time, books fall, it's just not practical (at least, not from what I see around).
Third, a lot of people are not familiair with the changes in rites during special occasions and its difficult to carry 3 or 4 books and flip through the pages to keep up with everything (at least, for the average person).colon cleansesteriodsI'm wondering myself why things have worked for 2000 years without all this technology, and why all these issues I mentioned (and other) are such obstacles nowadays. I really wish to have technology-free services, but we need some wisdom to fix practical issues. Any takers?
HG Bishop Youssef uses an ipad, which has his notes on it, to give his sermons during church services
Oh dear.. tut tut tut.
[quote author=Hos Erof link=topic=10187.msg124514#msg124514 date=1292364335]
I have very mixed feelings about technology in church. Deep down i'd absolutely prefer using books or having the people know the liturgy by heart. However, we run into some practical problems.
First of all, a lot of people don't take any books with them, so they may end up distracted or not participating. We noticed in our church a HUGE difference during the Midnight praises when there's a .ppt or not.
Second, placing books / small booklets in church for people to use doesnt work with egyptians for some reason. Kids tear the books in pieces, people take them home and forget them next time, books fall, it's just not practical (at least, not from what I see around).
Third, a lot of people are not familiair with the changes in rites during special occasions and its difficult to carry 3 or 4 books and flip through the pages to keep up with everything (at least, for the average person).colon cleansesteriodsI'm wondering myself why things have worked for 2000 years without all this technology, and why all these issues I mentioned (and other) are such obstacles nowadays. I really wish to have technology-free services, but we need some wisdom to fix practical issues. Any takers?
HG Bishop Youssef uses an ipad, which has his notes on it, to give his sermons during church services
oh...forget the ipad.....long ago, when there wasn't much touch phones and the Palm phone was most famous, he used to have one and in his lectures and ordinations he used simply becuase he always had access to translations no one else have.....which is one of the main reasons we support such use of technology. as you just said, he uses ipad for his lecture notes....not for liturgy (even thoo it'll be a great duplicate of the book) and for EVERYTHING ELSE!! we have to consider our action in context here.
Abouna Isidores from the Abbey in Texas uses his iPad to read hazzats during tasbeha lol.
HE NOW HAVE AN IPAD!!!!! omg...i am gonna have fun tomorrow when i get there.
Abouna Isidores from the Abbey in Texas uses his iPad to read hazzats during tasbeha lol.
So why the heck am I being attacked for if there are monks and priests using it for their worship??
I WAS READING THE BIBLE ON IT!!!
You weren't being attacked. You started this thread looking for opinions and people started giving you theirs in their own style which I don't blame you if sometimes they came across is patronizing, at least I hope mine weren't...
Secondly, we don't believe in the infallibility of higher ranks including bishops and popes. And for me those couple of cases quoted earlier are not something to go by still. I would rather they used those devices privately not publicly for whatever season, but I may only be viewed as an old-fashioned fanatic... pretty much on Fr. Peter's stance...
The US Senate has a complete ban on such devices.